Sony Monochrom???

[marcg]

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Sony is once more challenging Leica! According to one source Sony is developing a new Full Frame Black and White sensor for a camera to be launched within one year!

(SR4) Sony to launch a Full Frame Black and White sensor camera? | sonyalpharumors

[Fotograph]

(SR4) Sony to launch a Full Frame Black and White sensor camera? | sonyalpharumors

 

If B&W, then Leica, but then "old style" Leica like M7 - the M Monochrom is just perfect

[250swb]

And if it has all the bugs using M lenses that the A7R has there are a lot of people who won't be buying that either.

 

Steve

[ModernMan]

Sony needs to get the sensor photo-site/microlens geometry fixed to address corner smearing issues with non-telecentric lenses.

 

The A7r have no fast wides and the prospects for any becoming available in the near future are dim, so they rely on adapters/Leica lenses in this regard. But this needs to be made to work right. Monochrome version? Surely you're joking? Who's going to buy it? Perhaps those that aspire to purchase a Leica M Monochrome -- not likely.

[jaapv]

Unlikely - the market has been skimmed bare by Leica - Sony ain’t stupid

[Jeff S]

Not quite, unless Leica thinks an MM based on the new M platform would only have an audience among current MM users. Doubtful.

 

Jeff

[adan]

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I think it depends on how one defines "challenging Leica" - and how narrowly Leica-M-centric one's own vision is.

 

The A7 series may have problems with Leica M wide-angles. But so what? There are plenty of non-M lenses out there with powerful resolution (Kyocera/Contax/Zeiss SLR lenses as one example, or the last round of R lenses) and without the short-back-focus challenges of wide M lenses.

 

I've shot with the A7r and a Leica-R 60 macro, and the results are pretty impressive, even with the Bayer filtering still in place.

 

It doesn't "challenge" even my M9 - for Leica-style reportage/documentary work. But then, neither does a Linhof 4x5 (which also out-resolves any Leica made so far - and doesn't require Leica lenses to do so.) But I'm giving the A7r very serious consideration as a "Linhof substitute" for a whole different kind of photography. Architecture, landscape, studio.

 

One has to look (as will Sony) at the 99%+ of the photographic market for whom Leica and Leica lenses are an irrelevancy (or at least not the only paradigm in town). Would enough of that market be interested in a B&W-only, massive-resolution A7r-m? At, say, $3,495?

[marcg]

There seems to be a sense both here and in the A7® thread that Sonys entire business plan is predicated being the camera supplier of choice for use with Leica lenses.

 

Although there are very few Sony FF lenses so far - that will change and I am sure that other than, maybe some prestige - Sony is not too bothered about existing Leica owners.

What Sony would like, of course would be to attract prospective Leica owners - as well as opening up a Leica-esque experience to a whole new market of people would would have loved to get into an MM but who could never afford to.

 

Don't forget that camera sales generally have been falling worldwide - and this is probably because of the increase in high end camera functionality in mobile phones.

This means that the camera industry has to offer products which are very new, very cutting edge - and unobtainable in the telephone market.

A Sony Monochrom - priced at half the cost of a Leica could do this very well.

 

Sony really should hurry up and produce more lenses. Once people have bought into Sony native lenses - then they will have bought into the Sony system and will be reluctant to change to another one.

[jaapv]

Not quite, unless Leica thinks an MM based on the new M platform would only have an audience among current MM users. Doubtful.

 

Jeff

 

I doubt that too. There appears to be an overlap between more hardcore classic rangefinder shooters and photographers willing to spend money on a monochrome camera.

 

I strongly suspect that users that appreciate more current-day features ranging from video and AF to smile recognition and focus peaking will regard single grayscale as a novelty and will soon miss the flexibility of three color channels in black and white.

[jaapv]

I think it depends on how one defines "challenging Leica" - and how narrowly Leica-M-centric one's own vision is.

 

The A7 series may have problems with Leica M wide-angles. But so what? There are plenty of non-M lenses out there with powerful resolution (Kyocera/Contax/Zeiss SLR lenses as one example, or the last round of R lenses) and without the short-back-focus challenges of wide M lenses.

 

I've shot with the A7r and a Leica-R 60 macro, and the results are pretty impressive, even with the Bayer filtering still in place.

 

It doesn't "challenge" even my M9 - for Leica-style reportage/documentary work. But then, neither does a Linhof 4x5 (which also out-resolves any Leica made so far - and doesn't require Leica lenses to do so.) But I'm giving the A7r very serious consideration as a "Linhof substitute" for a whole different kind of photography. Architecture, landscape, studio.

 

You echo Sean Reid’s A7R review here.

[Jeff S]

I doubt that too. There appears to be an overlap between more hardcore classic rangefinder shooters and photographers willing to spend money on a monochrome camera.

 

I think we're not in agreement on some points. I agree that a b/w camera will always be a niche product in the digital age. And I also agree that simplicity of function is more in tune with b/w use.

 

When I said "doubtful," however, I was referring to your point that Leica had already skimmed the market. I think there will be another MM, and that it will sell to those who want a more refined camera (shutter, battery life, improved RF, weather sealed, etc), not just the current MM user, if in fact the b/w is superior to the current M. Even better if Leica took off the logo, provided for reprogramming of added buttons like video, etc.

 

But that's just about Leica, and obviously that means high price. I do think that some manufacturer could produce a much lower priced b/w camera that would have another niche audience, at least equivalent to the current MM user base. Whether any company sees that as a worthwhile market, given the small size, is another issue….and that's what makes such entry doubtful. It's not about Leica lenses IMO, it's about the concept in general.

 

Mike Johnston at TOP has written here (and other articles) that the MM is the right camera, but at the wrong end of the market. He has argued for a long time for a b/w camera for entry users, and even for more experienced folks, that is low (or moderately) priced. The IQ benefits that Leica has demonstrated only makes his case more interesting.

 

So, while I think the numbers of digital b/w-only camera users will always be small, I thinks there's room for another small Leica audience, and even more if another company would produce one at a fraction of the price…but the sales/profit equation for those companies will of course dictate.

 

Jeff

[mjh]

If Sony should actually be thinking about challenging Leica, a vendor scrambling for a 1 percent market share, they would have to be really desperate (even more so if one considers what part of Leica’s current market share is due to the M Monochrom).

 

Building a monochrome camera is not exactly rocket science. Almost any vendor could have brought such a product to market, and could have done so for many years. Leica could have introduced a monochrome M by 2006 but it took them a further 6 years to actually do it. The thing is that anyone suggesting building a monochrome camera must be able to make his or her case that such a move would lead to the company earning rather than losing money. That’s the difficult bit. Ideas like this are usually shot down at this stage. Leica seems to have found a way to make the M Monochrom profitable, even when it may not have that much of an impact at the bottom line. It remains to be seen whether Sony manages, too.

[Lee Martin]

There seems to be a sense both here and in the A7® thread that Sonys entire business plan is predicated being the camera supplier of choice for use with Leica lenses.

 

Although there are very few Sony FF lenses so far - that will change and I am sure that other than, maybe some prestige - Sony is not too bothered about existing Leica owners.

What Sony would like, of course would be to attract prospective Leica owners - as well as opening up a Leica-esque experience to a whole new market of people would would have loved to get into an MM but who could never afford to.

 

Don't forget that camera sales generally have been falling worldwide - and this is probably because of the increase in high end camera functionality in mobile phones.

This means that the camera industry has to offer products which are very new, very cutting edge - and unobtainable in the telephone market.

A Sony Monochrom - priced at half the cost of a Leica could do this very well.

 

Sony really should hurry up and produce more lenses. Once people have bought into Sony native lenses - then they will have bought into the Sony system and will be reluctant to change to another one.

 

There's an awful lot of truth and common sense written here. Sony will release a bigger number of high quality primes I'm sure, made to an extremely high standard by Zeiss and this will be a very serious competitor then. In the last few days I've read on this forum of a gentleman purchasing a brand new M 240 and 6 brand new lenses of which 2 have been faulty from the off. Quality control is not what it should be for these prices.

[marcg]

.... purchasing a brand new M 240 and 6 brand new lenses of which 2 have been faulty from the off. Quality control is not what it should be for these prices.

... not to mention all of the glitches and poor support he is going to experience with his M240.

 

With Sony's clout, it really won't be hard for them to capture the entire Leica market - except for those who still prefer real rangefinder manual focus.

 

That would still leave a reasonable market of people who are prepared to pay a premium for a tradition, a niche, a label and a sense of prestige - and of course for a way to keep on using their very excellent lenses.

However, I expect that the market will dwindle over the next decade - unless Leica come up with some other way to compete.

Still, this is all going off-topic. Might Sony really produce a Monochrom - and would it be of any interest to people here?

[k_g_wolf ✝]

Of course, esp. round here: for a third of the MONOCHROM-price it certainly will attract A LOT...

 

best

GEORG

[Jeff S]

The thing is that anyone suggesting building a monochrome camera must be able to make his or her case that such a move would lead to the company earning rather than losing money.

 

I think there's room for another small Leica audience, and even more if another company would produce one at a fraction of the price…but the sales/profit equation for those companies will of course dictate.

 

Same point.

 

Jeff

[ModernMan]

There seems to be a sense both here and in the A7® thread that Sonys entire business plan is predicated being the camera supplier of choice for use with Leica lenses.

 

Its more like Sony must have predicated their business plan on being the supplier of choice for a camera to be used principally with lenses from other camera systems, since they introduced an excellent camera but with only 3 native lenses total (2 primes and one zoom) available.

 

 

Although there are very few Sony FF lenses so far - that will change and I am sure that other than, maybe some prestige - Sony is not too bothered about existing Leica owners.

 

Sony have apparently disclosed a roadmap that describes 15 FE lenses to be available by the end of 2015 -- 2 years from now.

 

In the meantime, Sony would presumably like to sell some more cameras. Accordingly one would expect that they would be concerned with A7/r performance with lenses from manufacturers other than Sony, including but not limited to Leica.

[k-hawinkler]

From my point of view traditional Leica M lenses can be problematic for digital sensors.

Not the other way around. Even Leica is struggling with that.

 

So, starting more or less from scratch, i.e. no installed lens base,

Sony is free to design their FE lenses specifically for a digital sensor without having to worry about legacy lenses.

 

For a similar price point as an A7R a B&W Sony camera would be very attractive to me.

I am sure it would be capable of delivering stunning images without Leica M lenses.

So what! I am more interested in images and their IQ rather than Leica specific issues.

 

This forum has been very educational for me.

I learned a tremendous amount.

Many thanks to all of you.

But unfortunately this forum also has its limitations due to its nature, the way it is setup and run.

[Lee Martin]

I'd certainly have a good look at a Sony full frame B&W camera along with high end Zeiss glass. I've had numerous Sony products over the last 25 years including Walkmans TV's MIni DIsc decks and digital cameras. I've never had to have one repaired or replaced. I love the Leica products, it's hard not to as I think the design and in most cases the actual engineering is beautiful, but if they are happy to take this much money from you they have to expect that the customers will not be expecting poor quality control or less reliability and lower standard of service than from cameras costing less than half the price.

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Hallo,

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[k-hawinkler]

Exactly. What has primarily put me off is Leica's poor QC record.