Luxury Brand or High End Tool Maker?

[hankg]

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With the M8, Leica is at a crossroads. What is the path to return Leica to the mainstream of photography and restore the company to a sound financial footing and ensure that our investment in the M8 doesn't get flushed down the tiolet?

 

Hermes former investment in Leica looked like a sure signal that Leica would become the Gucci of camera companies. Marketing the exclusive Leica 'lifestyle' to Hermes well heeled demographic. That was bad news for photographers who valued the Leica as an image making tool because what makes a luxury brand successful is very different from what makes a toolmakers product successful.

 

Tools are evaluated on their effectiveness as tools. While luxury brand products are evaluated on their effectiveness at inflating their owners ego (which is their primary function). Unlike a farmer's tractor, a carpenter's drill or a photographer's camera, the actual functionality of luxury items is almost besides the point. It's the perception of being a member of an exclusive club, of having arrived that is really important.

 

Luxury brand buyers value exclusivity and rarity. After all if the unwashed masses could have the same product it would loose all of it's value as a status object. Tool owners like tools that have an expanding installed base because it attracts third party support (Aperture, Lightroom, etc.,) and third party products that make the owner more productive and give him more choice. A large customer base also means you are invested in a more stable platform with a larger pool of user experience to draw from.

 

While Leica's consumer products (the lower end digicams) may benefit from the luxury marque positioning, hopefully where the M line is concerned the new Leica is committed to getting the M8 into the hands of as many photographers as possible. Judging from some of the responses on the subject of user selectable profiles, some M8 owners seem to be incensed at the idea of the riff-raff getting a 'free ride' in their exclusive first class cabin. Hopefully that sort of thinking left Leica with Hermes as it has been deadly for Leica's business. The Leica as luxury status object model has already failed miserably. So I hope Leica, by whatever method, insures that there are as few barriers as possible to M8 ownership and that Leica sees the serious photographer (a demographic not on the same financial level as your typical Hermes customer) as their target customer and the foundation of Leica's future.

[ddp]

So....how would you judge the current demographic of Leica users? From what I can see on this forum, there are more than a few affluent Leica owners. And while I own a few pieces that would be deemed collectible by many - they are tools for me in my craft. I traded in lots of gear for one piece...over and over again. I don't fit the demographic...that much I am sure.

 

Leica using photographers like Gibson and Salgado in their brochures doesn't scream luxury branding to me - BUT Leica has always been an object of cult desire. Yet in many cases, it's an object of derision by those who see the owners as smug dentists coddling their M's in leather half cases as they venture on holiday to exotic locales. Trust me, this is a perception that still exists. Leica is still an exclusive brand....although the M8 has gotten a fair amount of mainstream notice.

 

Since I’ve been shooting – and I’m Gen X for an age reference – Leica has always been a high end brand. New prices on lenses and bodies present a barrier to younger, serious photographers. In fact, they present a barrier to most photographers. The M8 is priced on par with the D2X and other pro level offerings…ensuring that pros or serious amateurs with the cash or ability to write it off can afford one. That’s fine with me actually….nothing wrong with a company having a top of the line model to entice people. But what is needed if you really want to gain a foothold with the masses is entry level stuff that doesn’t dilute the brand like a baby Benz or baby Jag.

 

I’m not really sure that the perception of Leica as luxury can be shaken…

[jaapv]

So....how would you judge the current demographic of Leica users? From what I can see on this forum, there are more than a few affluent Leica owners. And while I own a few pieces that would be deemed collectible by many - they are tools for me in my craft. I traded in lots of gear for one piece...over and over again. I don't fit the demographic...that much I am sure.

 

Leica using photographers like Gibson and Salgado in their brochures doesn't scream luxury branding to me - BUT Leica has always been an object of cult desire. Yet in many cases, it's an object of derision by those who see the owners as smug dentists coddling their M's in leather half cases as they venture on holiday to exotic locales. Trust me, this is a perception that still exists. Leica is still an exclusive brand....although the M8 has gotten a fair amount of mainstream notice.

 

Since I’ve been shooting – and I’m Gen X for an age reference – Leica has always been a high end brand. New prices on lenses and bodies present a barrier to younger, serious photographers. In fact, they present a barrier to most photographers. The M8 is priced on par with the D2X and other pro level offerings…ensuring that pros or serious amateurs with the cash or ability to write it off can afford one. That’s fine with me actually….nothing wrong with a company having a top of the line model to entice people. But what is needed if you really want to gain a foothold with the masses is entry level stuff that doesn’t dilute the brand like a baby Benz or baby Jag.

 

I’m not really sure that the perception of Leica as luxury can be shaken…

 

 

Well, in the vein of cars, if you want to win the Formula I you're best off driving a Ferrari. I'd like to own a baby Ferrari:rolleyes:

 

I would venture that the Leica equivalent of a baby Merc is the Digilux 3.

 

Btw, I'm a smug dentist and my Leicas tend to end up with a slightly beat-up look. I'm working on the M8 The first scuffs are already in place Maybe I should get a leather case and put them in a display cabinet....

[Shootist]

Leica has always been a Luxury brand and a high end photography tool.

They have always cost more then other brand of the same and other (SLR) types in the 35mm format.

The Lenses have always cost more and have been better.

They have always been a luxury to own, if you could afford and justify the expense. Nikon and Canon did not succeed for all these year without selling tons of equipment to pro users. So why didn't those pro's buy Leica? Because those pro's felt a Leica was out of there range and a Luxury item and couldn't justify the difference in cost.

Little do they know.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Some do . ROTFLMAO

 

Seriously though i have been down the Nikon and canon path for many years and maybe thought the same thing of leica was it was overpriced for my needs and than i realized how STUPID that was. Lets face it 35mm is not the best format for image quality , Medium Format was always the king and 4x5 and i shot them for many years as well but 35mm is the most workable system there is with many choices . The trick is now is to squeeze out every drop you can out of 35mm and really my conclusion is the only way to do that is Leica

[ddp]

Nikon and Canon did not succeed for all these year without selling tons of equipment to pro users.

 

I think a point should be made that Nikon and Canon have positioned themselves nicely in press pools with photo journalists....many pros have had access to the high end stuff that's in the closets of their respective papers.

 

In the upper echelons of glass from Nikon & Canon - there are some truly fine optics. They are both pricey and well made - well out of reach of the averag shooter.

[ddp]

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Well, in the vein of cars, if you want to win the Formula I you're best off driving a Ferrari. I'd like to own a baby Ferrari:rolleyes:

 

I would venture that the Leica equivalent of a baby Merc is the Digilux 3.

 

 

The problem is that the Leica equivalent of a baby Merc today NEEDS to be in the veins of the CL....a small, affordable body that would allow one to use M lenses. This is assuming that you want to draw photographers into the brand....buying used lenses is not so bad compared to the entry level of the new stuff.

[jaapv]

The problem is that the Leica equivalent of a baby Merc today NEEDS to be in the veins of the CL....a small, affordable body that would allow one to use M lenses. This is assuming that you want to draw photographers into the brand....buying used lenses is not so bad compared to the entry level of the new stuff.

To be truthful , I drive a Jag X-type. Not because it is entry-level (It doesn't feel like that when one has to pay for it anyway) but because it is the only Jaguar estate (wagon to you Americans ). So it does not draw me into the brand, it was a concious choice for this model.

I do not believe it works like that.There is as much risk of current M-owners downgrading as there a chance is of baby-M owners upgrading. The rest of the buyers would simply be Baby-M owners. Not that it would not be a desirable camera...

[Joe Mondello]

In the upper echelons of glass from Nikon & Canon - there are some truly fine optics. They are both pricey and well made - well out of reach of the averag shooter.

 

I think a large part of the pricing is due to the niche market in which Leica operates.

 

The most exensive standard focal length prime Nikkor was the recently discontinued 28 1.4 AF-D ASPH with a hand ground aspherical element.

 

The 28 1.4 ASPH is a legendary Nikon lens which had an MSRP of $2400 and generally sold for $1700 USD. Compare that to say the Leica Summilux 35 1.4 ASPH and you'll see that the Nikkor is considerably less expensive -- about half price.

 

On a D2xs the 28 yields an effective FOV of 42mm; on an M8 the 35 is effectively a 48mm so they serve comparable purposes for digital shooters.

 

Another reasonable example might be the equally legendary Nikkor 85 1.4 AF-D which retails at around $1000 USD compared to the 75 Summilux 1.4 at . . . well I could only find a used one for $2500!

 

The M8 may be a *simpler* camera than a D2Xs, but price-wise they really aren't that far apart (the Nikon is around $500 USD less on the Street).

 

To answer the OP, some of both to be sure, but since the M8 is a digital camera I think it will be far less collectible than a mechanical Leica -- unless the M8 proves to be "the last M." (No! No! No!)

[ken_tanaka]

With the M8, Leica is at a crossroads. What is the path to return Leica to the mainstream of photography and restore the company to a sound financial footing and ensure that our investment in the M8 doesn't get flushed down the tiolet?

 

 

Leica is squarely and securely in its own "mainstream" already. The M system is, and has been for several decades, aimed squarely at the affluent amateur photographer. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, and entrepreneurs seem to be the core of the market. Evidence of this is everywhere in these forums (and, yes, this thread) as well as at other sites. This tends to be a market segment that spends relatively large sums rather whimsically, relies heavily on price to determine value, and is perpetually impatient to get "the best". Once the item is acquired these folks will aggressively soft-market (for Leica) by breathlessly declaring the item to be peerless. (These are not, after all, folks who have achieved affluence by being meek wallflowers.)

 

Of course many Leica buyers do not fit this profile. Some will sell their current cameras, liquidate the kids' college funds, or put themselves into hock to get an M. Others just enjoy these little retro cameras and can afford the occasional caprice.

 

No other camera brand truly occupies this market space. Leica has worked long and hard to turn its original workhorse M into functional jewelry. The M8 was vital for carrying this strategy into the digital imaging age.

 

Long live the king!

 

Long live Leica!

[ddp]

Joe - even as "cheap" as those Nikkors may seem in comparison to Leica glass, to the average photographer they are still hard to justify. And for most pros, Leica is still hard to justify when it comes right down to it. For the person who uses a Canon Rebel - a $2900 50mm lens is unfathomable. How can it NOT be perceived as a luxury item?

[sdai]

Btw, I'm a smug dentist and my Leicas tend to end up with a slightly beat-up look. I'm working on the M8 The first scuffs are already in place Maybe I should get a leather case and put them in a display cabinet....

 

You should remind folks not to buy an used M8 or any leica lenses from you, Jaap ... unless they're in absolutely obsessive love with teeth marks. LOL

 

Cheers, doc ... if I were in Holland, I'd love to book a dental appointment with you every week.

[earleygallery]

With the M8, Leica is at a crossroads. What is the path to return Leica to the mainstream of photography and restore the company to a sound financial footing and ensure that our investment in the M8 doesn't get flushed down the tiolet?

 

Tools are evaluated on their effectiveness as tools. While luxury brand products are evaluated on their effectiveness at inflating their owners ego (which is their primary function).

 

So I hope Leica, by whatever method, insures that there are as few barriers as possible to M8 ownership and that Leica sees the serious photographer (a demographic not on the same financial level as your typical Hermes customer) as their target customer and the foundation of Leica's future.

 

Crossroads, what crossroads? I think the M8 is already doing much to 'return Leica to the mainstream of photography'.

 

I don't think Rolls Royce or Ferrari would sell many cars if they weren't the very best of their type. You are making a sweeping generalisation saying that people buy 'luxury' products just for the label. Perhaps they enjoy the quality, the heritage an performance of such products?

 

The only barrier to M8 ownership is the £3K (or whatever equivalent) purchase price + a lens or two. If you can afford it fine, if not choose another route. Likewise the barrier to owning a Roller or Ferrari.

 

Personally I don't need an M8. OK I can't afford an M8 either but that's not the point. I just bought an M2 which I'm looking forward to using for street photography.

[ttliem]

But what is needed if you really want to gain a foothold with the masses is entry level stuff that doesn’t dilute the brand like a baby Benz or baby Jag.

 

Perhaps after the M9 comes out (or even later if a FF model can become a reality). Then a modified M8 version can be offered as their baby digital M. However, with current Leica M lenses as good and expensive as they are, combined with a cheaper body will still result in above entry level cost/quality gear.

[dannirr]

Leica has never been "mainstream". It has always been a high end camera that's been used by many professionals and amateurs for the features they offered and the quality, reliability and service obtained.

 

It has also always been used by the affluent - but often for the same reasons.

 

To go back to cars - it's very much like Rolls-Royce (not the current crop). While certainly a car for the wealthy, their reputation (like Leica) was built simply because the product was better. It was the best car money could buy (that changed in the 70's to the best car money would buy). Wealthy people do not keep buying cars (or cameras) if they are unreliable, or offer a poor user experience.

 

These products were built on reality, unlike what we saw in the web-based crazy's of the 90's (pet.com etc) that had no real product or value. But, they were also never mainstream.

 

Danni

 

(and in the interest of full disclosure - yes, I have a bias towards Rolls-Royce and Leica)

[R10dreamer]

I bought into Leica 10 years ago and did it for only three reasons:

 

1. I knew that the Leica lenses were the best and therefor any shot that I took, as long as I did "my" job, would be as good as it could get.

 

2. I knew that I would be able to use this equipment for 20 years. Leica has kept backword compatibility on its lenses and I just can't see that changing.

 

3. I only shoot manual mode, manual focus. I didn't want all the bells and whistles of the other camera systems.

 

When you buy into Leica you are buying into the belief that your purchase will be the best and last the longest.

 

My .02.

[hankg]

Leica has never been "mainstream". It has always been a high end camera that's been used by many professionals and amateurs for the features they offered and the quality, reliability and service obtained.

 

Actually that is not true. They were once at the center of the photographic world thats how they built the brand equity that they have been living off ever since. It's not an issue of price but vision and attitude.

[jaapv]

Actually that is not true. They were once at the center of the photographic world thats how they built the brand equity that they have been living off ever since. It's not an issue of price but vision and attitude.

 

Hmm........ In WW II they were better currency than money....

[ken_tanaka]

Actually that is not true. They were once at the center of the photographic world thats how they built the brand equity that they have been living off ever since. It's not an issue of price but vision and attitude.

 

Actually, the reality lies somewhere between you and Danni. In the relatively brief heyday of the rangefinder (1950's, 1960's) there were quite a few competing brands (Canon and Nikon being among them). Leica was a premium-priced brand even in those days. The majority of leather-case-clad rangefinders dangling from American tourists' necks were the more moderately priced brands.

 

So the rangefinder did enjoy a relatively brief, pre-slr period as a "mainstream" camera design. But Leicas were mostly worn by ... well ... doctors, dentists and lawyers!

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[dannirr]

Actually that is not true. They were once at the center of the photographic world thats how they built the brand equity that they have been living off ever since. It's not an issue of price but vision and attitude.

 

Leica were never the center of the photographic world. During their heyday, they were chosen for quality and features - but most working photographers (photo journalists, reporters etc) were not using Leica - they were using a multitude of cameras including Nikon, Contax, Graflex etc. Which American photographers were using Leica? Eisenstadt did (he was not an American) and HCB did, but Bourke-White, Adams etc were not. Perhaps Robert Cappa did - I am unsure?

 

It is probably true to say they were the primary camera in Germany but they were in no way held that place in the world. They probably were the primary optics company - but that includes microscopes etc.

 

Danni