earleygallery Posted January 7, 2014 Share #21 Posted January 7, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) When Citroen moved assembly of the 2cv from Paris to Portugal, manufacturing "quality" took a nosedive. Wow, was that even possible?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here Leica Camera - Made in Portugal (NOT Germany). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wda Posted January 7, 2014 Share #22 Posted January 7, 2014 ...and they just invested huge money on Portugal's plant last year, which makes sense. The Leica plant in Portugal is still a Leica factory with Leica supervision and inspection. The same was true, I believe, for the one-time Leica factory in Midland Ontario Canada where some exceptionally fine Leica lenses were made, some exclusively there for a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7, 2014 Share #23 Posted January 7, 2014 My R3 is proudly engraved 'Made in Portugal' and my 35 Summicron 'Made in Canada'. The essential parts of any new M or X are obviously made in the Far East by various electrical manufacturers. But they bck to a sensor supplier and manufacturer in Europe for the M. Actually, if one digs deeper, a unexpectedly large number of electronic components in general is made in various European countries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 7, 2014 Share #24 Posted January 7, 2014 My R3 is proudly engraved 'Made in Portugal' and my 35 Summicron 'Made in Canada'. The essential parts of any new M or X are obviously made in the Far East by various electrical manufacturers. It was said, that the Portugese didn't like their Leica products being laballed as "Made in Portugal". They seemed to be proud that their work was labelled as "German" - some mystik born in the Anglo-Saxon world long ago. It may be right that most of the X comes from Far East - though less for the M. The body is made in Portugal, the CMOSIS-Sensor is produced in Grenoble. Remains the processor which has a Fujitsu-label, so it seems to be Asian, though Fujitsu has several plants in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7, 2014 Share #25 Posted January 7, 2014 Wow, was that even possible?! LOL - I had a 2CV Van when a student - some of my wildest automotive adventures date back to that vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest odeon Posted January 7, 2014 Share #26 Posted January 7, 2014 The first thing, i'm not a troll. I'm using a Leica M. And, i'm happy with it. I'm just customer. - There is many thread on forum. It's true. But, everybody know Japanese D-Luxs. I'm surprising with the Leica M bodies. Leica's M cameras different than other Leica branded products. - Who care? I care. Because i'm a customer. I want to see an honest company. - Everyone make it! Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, etc. No, none of the trusted companies. For example, i bought a Louis Vuitton suitcase. It was produced in France. And, the suitcase marked with "Made in France" tag. After weeks i bought another Louis Vuitton product, it's a wallet. It didn't produce in France. It have "Made in Spain" lettering. Or, do you have a iPhone? I can see that: "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China." -Is it matter for us? If you engrave the "Made in Germany" letters on top of the camera, it's too important for me. Nikon produces in Thailand, but never engrave a Japanese motto on top of the camera. And the last one, - It's same quality! No, sorry folks. Volkswagen produces Mexican Jetta cars. They are worse than German Golfs. Craftsmanship is more important than you think. For that reason Hermès produces leather goods in France, Rolls-Royce produces finest cars in England, and Rolex produces timeless watches in Switzerland. The next chapter: The definition of "Swiss Made" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 7, 2014 Share #27 Posted January 7, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) You might call it dishonest that "Made in Germany" is engraved on the cameras. Leica itself did never conceal the fact that they produce in Portugal for more than 40 years now and half their staff worldwide lives in Portugal - I don't see anything wrong with this. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-aktuell/2013/09/40-jahre-leica-portugal/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 7, 2014 Share #28 Posted January 7, 2014 Don't ya love stereotypes? VW owns Audi, and American Axel makes the Quattro drive system. AA's European HQ and Engineering Center is in Homburg Germany. I was shocked to find that almost all American car batteries were made in one factory in the US. Even more so when I discovered that most brands of Cottage Cheese are made in one place. You learn all this trivia when you work in the advertising business. The truth will set you free ... LOL! - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted January 7, 2014 Share #29 Posted January 7, 2014 Where a product is made should, in itself, be of little concern - if the production standards are high. But the two movie clips show a certain casualness in the workplace and handling of cameras that I did not expect. It would be interesting to see the new factory and the new M production. When it starts there. And, just for the record, I was (am) happy with my M8 and, so far, I am happy with my M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 7, 2014 Share #30 Posted January 7, 2014 ... I want to see an honest company. ...The next chapter: The definition of "Swiss Made" A company which puts legally correct labels on its product can - by that fact alone - not be accused of being dishonest.The definition of "Swiss Made" is under discussion in Switzerland right now. Exponents of the watch industry are most vocal and in support of raising the ratio of parts which must come from Switzerland. The makers of cookies and chocolates take the opposite stance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 7, 2014 Share #31 Posted January 7, 2014 The first thing, i'm not a troll. I'm using a Leica M. And, i'm happy with it. I'm just customer. - There is many thread on forum. It's true. But, everybody know Japanese D-Luxs. I'm surprising with the Leica M bodies. Leica's M cameras different than other Leica branded products. - Who care? I care. Because i'm a customer. I want to see an honest company. OK flip this another way, since a Leica M is made from components made in or sourced from manufacturers in various countries and assembled in Germany, what do you think it should say on the camera? If - legally - Leica can apply the 'Made in Germany' tag given the % of work/components which are German, why shouldn't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonki-M Posted January 7, 2014 Share #32 Posted January 7, 2014 You might call it dishonest that "Made in Germany" is engraved on the cameras. Leica itself did never conceal the fact that they produce in Portugal for more than 40 years now and half their staff worldwide lives in Portugal - I don't see anything wrong with this. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-aktuell/2013/09/40-jahre-leica-portugal/ perhaps we are digging in too deep into the meaning of "Made in Germany". Perhaps Leica is honest, after all, if the "Made in Germany" is only meant for the plate in which it is engraved on. :D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted January 7, 2014 Share #33 Posted January 7, 2014 - Everyone make it! Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, etc. No, none of the trusted companies. For example, i bought a Louis Vuitton suitcase. It was produced in France. And, the suitcase marked with "Made in France" tag. After weeks i bought another Louis Vuitton product, it's a wallet. It didn't produce in France. It have "Made in Spain" lettering. Or, do you have a iPhone? I can see that: "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China." -Is it matter for us? If you engrave the "Made in Germany" letters on top of the camera, it's too important for me. Nikon produces in Thailand, but never engrave a Japanese motto on top of the camera. My Mac Pro stated, 'assembled in Ireland' is probably only assembled in Ireland for the last bit too... Leica follows each and every rule, so they can print made in Germany. Also, the final assembly and calibration etc are done in Germany.. So what are u nagging about? That the steel used in the camera isn't Deutsch?! That the PCB board, isn't Deutsch either? That maybe the gorilla glass on the screen isn't a German invention?! And it's made in Taiwan? If u want it fully made by Leica in Germany, u should pay them double if not more, will it be any better? NO! Since we're talking about the cars, there was a clear difference between the countries, but I've never spotted a difference between the 'Made in Germany' R8s and the 'Made in Portugal' R8s... So do you really wanna rant on about this, again, like 8 others have done before you? Leading to what? Depression, loss of believe in Leica? If u like ur Leica M, why would u care... I just removed the Made in Germany sticker on the bottom. Now I'm happy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anupmc Posted January 7, 2014 Share #34 Posted January 7, 2014 ...And the last one, - It's same quality! No, sorry folks. Volkswagen produces Mexican Jetta cars. They are worse than German Golfs. Craftsmanship is more important than you think. For that reason Hermès produces leather goods in France, Rolls-Royce produces finest cars in England, and Rolex produces timeless watches in Switzerland. ... Quality is a measure of control, not geography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted January 7, 2014 Share #35 Posted January 7, 2014 When Citroen moved assembly of the 2cv from Paris to Portugal, manufacturing "quality" took a nosedive. How could anyone tell...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonil Posted January 7, 2014 Share #36 Posted January 7, 2014 They seemed to be proud that their work was labelled as "German" - some mystik born in the Anglo-Saxon world long ago. The mystique comes from the German companies BMW and Mercedes when they got stimulus from the Nazi government at the time to produce engines that rivalled British Engineering at the time. When the Nazis tripled its army and air force, rebuilt roads and started exporting goods to Asia faster than the UK, because it was deemed of higher quality, that's how the mystique started. One of the interesting things about German made products was the Jerry Can. It helped win the war for the Allies because it was so well made, and designed, the Allies started raiding fuel dumps for the cans, and the Germans didn't know why they were doing that, since a lot of the tactical locations had both fuel and ammunition. There are many diary reports of British fuel cans leaking in the field and letters of complaint stating that because the Allies were too slow to move mechanically in the field, it was hard to reinforce the front - but when they had access to stolen Jerry Cans, suddenly the Allies were more mobile - so after the Allies crossed the border, they were just as mobile as the Nazis because they were stealing German made supplies. Mostly Jerry cans and trucks. By the time the war started, it was well known that German craftsmanship was well known - as the propaganda at the time was strong - Hitler was promoting his roads, newly planted forests and how high quality its new weapons and air force was. In fact, it was said by the factories in Germany, that no soldier complained about a faulty weapon they were that stringent with quality. (It may be propaganda at the time, but it added to the mystique of German craftsmanship.) Leo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest odeon Posted January 7, 2014 Share #37 Posted January 7, 2014 I'm under attack. Because i criticized Leica. Leica never made bad things. Also, the final assembly and calibration etc are done in Germany.. So what are u nagging about? That the steel used in the camera isn't Deutsch?! That the PCB board, isn't Deutsch either? That maybe the gorilla glass on the screen isn't a German invention?! And it's made in Taiwan? Leica produces 10% of Leica M in Germany. (Some sources say the ratio is 25%) We can watch the video on #2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 7, 2014 Share #38 Posted January 7, 2014 Plus a number of parts is outsourced to local companies in the Solms area (some of them Leica spin-offs). Even shipped from Germany to Portugal to be included in the sub-assemblies that are then shipped back to Germany. It is quite rash to make such an assertion without detailed knowledge of the production process, and laws and regulations regarding labeling. What's next? Leica lenses should not be called Made in Germany because the glass blanks (and indeed some part-pressed asphericals) are provided by Hoya and Corning? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonil Posted January 7, 2014 Share #39 Posted January 7, 2014 I'm under attack. Because i criticized Leica. Leica never made bad things. Leica produces 10% of Leica M in Germany. (Some sources say the ratio is 25%) We can watch the video on #2. No Im not attacking you - Id just not change my mind until an article is published showing facts and figures, not an assumption found on a conspirators wall. From my reading, MOST of Leica's PARTS are made by multiple different manufacturing firms from Germany, SOME parts are found in Italy, Austria and around Europe. SOME parts are sourced from Japan... they all then get sent to Portugal to ASSEMBLE the body and the boards - the Rangefinder is MADE in Germany and then sent to Portugal to be ASSEMBLED to the body. It is all sent back, the SENSOR is then assembled and the rest of the bodies are assembled as well, and then TESTED in Germany. The Command unit and the sensor are then tested for quality. The Electronics are then TESTED in Germany. Then the Shutter, and the focus are tested, the Rangefinder is then tested. The Camera is cleaned, then the Camera is Packaged and shipped from Germany. If you are complaining that someone is Portugal is being paid to screw the body and circuit boards and attaching the rangefinder, but EVERYTHING ELSE is made elsewhere... well, then OH MY GOD I want my money back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 7, 2014 Share #40 Posted January 7, 2014 Perhaps an example of a sound attitude towards the topic: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/315997-leica-portugals-major-daily-newspaper.html#post2598212 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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