M240 Color Test ... Oh, oh!

[jaapv]

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I appreciate all comments as I explore this camera.

 

I will say that getting this demo M240 is a dangerous undertaking. It is a VERY seductive piece of gear for a long time die-in-the-wool rangefinder user like myself. It truly is an industrial design work of art that feels fabulous in hand, has a GREAT viewfinder, and is smooth to operate ... the shutter whisper itself is a Siren's song. However, in the end it is just a camera that one has to evaluate based on one's needs when making photographs.

 

RE: IR ...I do not agree that the M9 was the same, as has been suggested ... I had 2 M8s and 3 different M9s I used for paying work, including weddings with black tuxedos made of fabric not found in nature, and the M9s never showed IR effects like this. As far as the M8 is concerned, I was one of the first to point out the magenta blacks issue, which led to the IR diagnosis.

 

As far as post work, I use LR and have no plans to alter that. When I work I use more than one camera at most shoots including my own S2, Sony A99 and some form of a M rangefinder ... plus either Nikon or Canon DSLRs shot by my second shooter at weddings.

 

All the images are then dropped into one folder and sorted by time shot because the "creative" story flow edit sequence is of paramount importance. One catalog with access to various plug-in processing programs with-in LR, and non-distructive editing. Doing hundreds of jobs with thousands of images to process this way had helped me develop an eye for processing to some level of consistency across digital camera platforms. If ANY camera makes it exceedingly difficult to obtain a reasonable consistency, and I can't manage to make a LR User Preset to ease the task, then it comes into question. I had that issue with the Nikon D3X, a fine camera that required to much attention in post ... which I replaced with a Sony A900, a much more well behaved choice in terms of initial color response.

 

The other aspect is how and where I use a rangefinder. IMO, most cameras do a good job in daylight at normal ISOs ... how well they handle more challenging light is the question ... and this is especially true for my rangefinder work that tends to be available tungsten or mixed lighting.

 

I say the above not to bore everyone, but to set the context I use in evaluating any camera as opposed to what other people find important. I just did some preliminary testing of the Sony A7R in the same manner (which is not a rangefinder, nor was considered as a replacement for one).

 

Almost every photo I take has a person in it. Skin tones are the number one evaluation for me. Preliminary M240 images shot in normal levels of indoor tungsten @ ISO 640 to 1600 using a custom WB off a grey card show overly magenta skin with the remainder of the environmental scene being reasonably correct (as long as there isn't any artificial black material). This is difficult to correct without a lot of effort.

 

The question is whether a preset can work. I still have a set of M8 IR Presets in LR, and none of them worked.

 

I will continue on trying the camera in various situations today and tomorrow where possible ... I'd really like this to work.

 

- Marc

I agree. In my subjective use the I find the M more IR sensitive than the M9 and less so than the M8. It may be that the actual measured sensitivity of the sensor is the same as the M9 but that the chosen colour rendering of the camera shows up the effect more clearly.

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[edwardkaraa]

I agree. In my subjective use the I find the M more IR sensitive than the M9 and less so than the M8. It may be that the actual measured sensitivity of the sensor is the same as the M9 but that the chosen colour rendering of the camera shows up the effect more clearly.

 

I think Leica had to use a thinner filter than the M9 due to:

 

1. The higher megapixel count of the M.

2. The new non offset microlens design.

[chris_tribble]

I can only partially relate to the OP's take on M-240 colour. I don't do weddings that often, but I do a great deal of theatre and performance work under widely differing artificial light conditions. My experience is that the M-240 does a great deal better than my Canon 5D2, requiring much work in post. The shot below was taken yesterday with AWB and is posted as is. Light source was very warm tungsten. I suppose one can argue until the cows come home about colour rendering - there are so many variables. However, in the present case, this matches the scene, is consistent with other images in the series, and pleases the client.

 

Just my 2c

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[pedaes]

I guess anyone can go straight to a known area of weakness due to design constraints and demonstrate what they want to demonstrate. Over five months/000's of images I can honestly say I have not experienced this issue once. But I have not set up some artificial studio shot either.

[jaapv]

I am not concerned with design constraints, I am concerned with obtaining the result I want and practical solutions. I find images taken in the tropics in the sun hard to process optimally because of IR contamination. So the next time I’ll use a filter.

[Guido]

So what exactly IS the verdict?

 

Get a UV/IR filter? Get a different camera? If get a UV/IR filter, which one?

The verdict is: get a Monochrom

[daure]

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18/04/2013.........

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278227-march-lfi-debunks-ccd-vs-cmos-post2378393.html#post2378393

[BerndReini]

If the IR content of the light is low there is no problem and the profiles are fine. So reducing IR by a filter when needed does not make a difference.

 

Not quite, because wide lenses starting from 35mm will show cyan edges with UV/IR filters. This has to be corrected for with custom profiles, which is why the M8 menu gave the option of UV/IR filter on or off.

 

Ultimately, I think that most of the new lenses that Zeiss will design for Sony and other mirror less cameras will use a telecentric design where rays hit the sensor at less oblique angles. Leica wides require design compromises on new cameras.

[Rick]

18/04/2013.........

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278227-march-lfi-debunks-ccd-vs-cmos-post2378393.html#post2378393

 

I knew it was discussed here before, but I searched and searched for that bag shot posted here until, I thought I just imagined it. Thanks for finding it. I thought it was discussed back in April and before that with Jono's beta dog picture when, some of us mentioned the IR sensitivity might be a little more than the M9. Then, went and took the bag picture.

 

Those bag pictures of daure's are more in line with what I am experiencing and are no problem. At dpreview they use a 800w tungsten light source for their bag test. Here is the M9 and their comments. I suppose if you use tungsten lighting on your subject it could bite you? In normal shooting situations I have had no problems. Digital Photography Review

 

Daure - Deja Vu all over again...

[jaapv]

Not quite, because wide lenses starting from 35mm will show cyan edges with UV/IR filters. This has to be corrected for with custom profiles, which is why the M8 menu gave the option of UV/IR filter on or off.

 

Ultimately, I think that most of the new lenses that Zeiss will design for Sony and other mirror less cameras will use a telecentric design where rays hit the sensor at less oblique angles. Leica wides require design compromises on new cameras.

Flat field correction for that one. One click in C1.

[lct]

...wide lenses starting from 35mm will show cyan edges with UV/IR filters...

Which lenses are you referring to if i may ask? I did some tests from 21 to 50mm with the beta firmware last summer and did not find any significant difference colour wise with and w/o UV/IR filter. Did it again a couple minutes ago with some wides at hand* and i can't see the least cyan shift in corners or edges of the filtered pics.

*CV 21/4 and Leicas 24/3.8, 28/2, 35/1.4 v2 and 35/1.4 pre-asph

[Jeff S]

I find images taken in the tropics in the sun hard...

 

Temperature-wise (per your other thread) and color-temperature-wise.

 

So much for beta tests.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Or better said: the parameters defined for the beta tests. It seems nobody took it into really harsh tropical conditions.

[Rick]

Marc - I do get purple on some fabrics when shot inside under tungsten lighting. I'm sure the IR content isn't anywhere near 800w tungsten lamps, though. But, I do think you will have problems with black tuxes, maybe not outdoors and maybe not under certain lighting conditions, but you most certainly will run into it. I commented on Jono's shots back in beta-beta days. And, I mentioned it when commenting on the M color in april that I thought it was a little more IR contamination than the M9.

 

So far, this has not been a problem that has spilled over to skin tones, for me. I like the redder skin tones rather than the desaturated red tones that I see from some other cameras. You asked before what waxy meant to me; yellow, desaturated red, and over processed in-camera NR.

 

I never liked the M8 + UV/IR filter skin tones under artificial lighting, at any ISO. I loved the M9 skin tones in natural and low ISO artificial light. I like the M skin tones better than the M9 in general and especially when the ISO rises. As Chris demonstrated the M is so much easier to work with at higher ISO under tungsten. Then, there is my RX1. Different skin tones once again.

 

So, I think you are going to be disappointed when you compare the M to other cameras that have a design that allows for less IR contamination. Both, synthetic fabric and matching skin tones from these cameras will be a challenge. A IR low pass filter might help. But, the wides will be screwed up in the corners which will add a step to your PP and I know you are loathe to more time spent in PP and I get that... I don't have to take several thousand pictures a week. I can spend time on PP, but I will say, I spend less time with the M than the M9. Most often, and I'm sure others will agree, the M AWB is dead on. Odd, that Leica went from Zero to Hero on this one with the firmware update.

 

Also, I think your skin tones are not going to match your M9 or the other cameras you own. We can discuss which is most correct, but this will be fruitless. Sometimes I'll like the desaturated red and sometimes I'll like a little more red. I think that Chris and Jono tend to like the M color, and so do I. Others here do not like something about the M color and that is fine. But, I may be putting words in your mouth, and I'm sorry if I do, but I believe, from what you have posted, that you have a certain look that works for you. It all has to do with pleasing skin tones. You get pleasing skin tones very well. But, it doesn't always leave the rest of the color unaffected. Look at the fire engine picture.

 

So, I think we all have different likes for skin tones and we may have different likes for the rest of the general color rendition of a camera. For example, I might not want a peaches and cream complexion on a ruddy old sailor. You, on the other hand get paid to make people look and feel good about their photographs. It is an experience. And, If I were you, I would also pick what works to that end.

 

I, on the other hand, walk around on vacation and take snap-shots and endeavor for a moment, and that is where the M shines, for me. The rest of the time I work my ass off all week long like you. So, for me, it has nothing to do with a studio or clients or matching a workflow or efficiency. I hope you realize we are aware of the IR decisions Leica has made and we understand why they chose to do that. And, to that end, I hope you enjoy the M240.

 

Just,

 

Rick

[mwilliamsphotography]

18/04/2013.........

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278227-march-lfi-debunks-ccd-vs-cmos-post2378393.html#post2378393

 

Thanks, I had not seen that thread even though I've been trying to keep up to date on the M240.

 

It appears that it was shot outdoors ... was the light low and tungsten only, or daylight, or a mix?

 

- Marc

[daure]

It was only daylight, a cloudy and half rainy day of april.

I am shure that the problem of the ir contamination has, all things beeing equals, nothing to do with temperature ( i mean air temperature ) or color temperature.

Color temperature is the result. Not the source.

All depends of the spectral quality of the Light source, and how it is filtered (clouds, altitude, Latitude, season ....)

Problem could occure on a light winter day as during a summer 99,9 % humidity day.

Or with artificial lightning or not

For those who want to know a little bit more, gogole is your friend.

Type :

- Ir emissivity

-ir transmission,

- ir absorption,

Don't forget how and why we see all the world with colors and why some objects dont react as we expect.

[chris_tribble]

How's best to eat your own words .... it's really odd how you only see what you need to see. I did a client job in Colombia a week back and have gone back over some of the images and discovered the contrast you can see below. What's odd is that I prefer the skin tones from the Leica, and in this case the table cloth hadn't been a problem because it didn't matter! However - it's also clear that under certain horrible artificial light, IR contamination is a major issue for the M-240.

 

Hmmm... Fortunately for me, it's a non-issue. However, I can see how it would be a major problem for Marc.

Hmmm.

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[woorob]

Marc, I've had good results using color profiles created with a ColorChecker Passport. Do you have (or have access to) one that you could try?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[daure]

If the subject is IR contamination, a color profile cannot helpyou.

If the subject is color rendition, a color profile may help and improve the rendition.

 

Out of topic : we have to thanks the bags makers to use these sort of fabrics to avoid the bags beeing more or less sort of ovens ...:cool:

[tobey bilek]

I keep the cut uv/ir filters on all lenses, even on the M9. Then profile the camera with adobe Profile editor.