mwilliamsphotography Posted February 12, 2014 Share #261 Posted February 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I guess what that overlooks is that some of our armchairs have considerable experience. Not to mention that us "gagged Lemmings" are the ones who've kept Leica in business. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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dant Posted February 13, 2014 Share #262 Posted February 13, 2014 Any new system based on APS-C or M4/3 is a mistake at this moment. Really serious mistake. In this context a rebranding of Panasonic products is more reasonable because you reduce risks (but it is nasty and probably a disaster). Sony new A7 and A7r have changed the market. You cannot sell an APS-C camera for $1500 anymore. The format size is the strongest sales argument. Olympus is seriously worried because that is in the price frame of the new OM-D. Fujifilm is worried too (they are planning to release a full frame camera next year!). They both will face serious trouble next year. We will see cheaper and smaller reflex cameras with FF sensors from Canon and Nikon in the near future. Where is the reasonable price range for an APS-C system by Leica? $1000? FF cameras will be there... next year (new Sony models, E mount). Zeiss will release manual focus lenses for the new Sony system late in 2014, and the ZM line of lenses seems to be damned. At Fuji Rumors the head of Fuji said no FF. Do you have some inside info? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 13, 2014 Share #263 Posted February 13, 2014 Its just wishful thinking. Fuji have spent the last few years extolling the FF like advantages of Xtrans, and likewise Olympus / Panasonic all in on micro 4/3. Their current product lines would have to collapse before moving FF, Sony really was the only one in a position to do what they did. Be careful what one wishes for with EVIL cameras. I read somewhere that Olympus might resurrect their 4/3 DSLR line due to poor sales of the micro 4/3 products. There is something niche I would like to see Leica make and its a proper top quality 35mm film scanner, like a son of Minolta 5400 piece of kit. Its a crazy market that one when 10yr old Minolta and Nikon scanners are selling for several times the price of a new Plustek. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 13, 2014 Share #264 Posted February 13, 2014 I would have thought a film scanner was a long way outside their core business. Remember the rebadged projector which sold poorly and sunk without trace. Pity the people who bought one and are now looking for parts or service. As for the Leica T, does anyone believe it is any more than an X Vario with interchangeable lenses, one of which would surely be a reworked variant of the X Vario zoom? I might be interested if it can take M lenses, otherwise no chance at all, though I do accept I am not in Leica's target demographic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 13, 2014 Share #265 Posted February 13, 2014 ... though I do accept I am not in Leica's target demographic. It feels like a steadily increasing number of us are no longer in that target demographic... Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 13, 2014 Share #266 Posted February 13, 2014 I would like to see Leica make and its a proper top quality 35mm film scanner, like a son of Minolta 5400 piece of kit. Its a crazy market that one when 10yr old Minolta and Nikon scanners are selling for several times the price of a new Plustek. I had long wanted Leica to offer such a product but I think Mark is correct that a 35mm scanner is too far from Leica's core business. If they were going to offer a scanner, the time to have done so would have been when the company didn't have any 'serious' digital cameras in their product line-up. Nowadays, the film cameras seem to be treated (in marketing terms) as a bit of nostalgia. In any case, if Leica did offer a scanner, the product would almost certainly be a re-badged or re-cased Plustek scanner. You might as well buy the vanilla product at a quarter of the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 13, 2014 Share #267 Posted February 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If this target demographic leads to 0.1% market share, Leica has to do something. Remember, they want 1%. And the "they" is not the family Leitz any more. The market asks for (a subset of) AF, zoom lenses, sensor cleaning, sport shooting, WLAN, live view, video, etc. And primarily low prices. Perhaps these iron sailors here could arrange themselves with iron ships? The A7 hype shows, that iron ships are welcomed, with the remarkable argument of buying a back-up camera. A typical back-up is something with perhaps less features, but more hardened, more reliable and a possibly simpler user interface. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 13, 2014 Share #268 Posted February 13, 2014 If this target demographic leads to 0.1% market share, Leica has to do something.Remember, they want 1%. And the "they" is not the family Leitz any more. The market asks for (a subset of) AF, zoom lenses, sensor cleaning, sport shooting, WLAN, live view, video, etc. And primarily low prices. This is a problem then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 13, 2014 Share #269 Posted February 13, 2014 It feels like a steadily increasing number of us are no longer in that target demographic... Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. While you can try to achieve both goals (and as far as I know Leica does), you have to diversify your portfolio so you have different products addressing different needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 13, 2014 Share #270 Posted February 13, 2014 If this target demographic leads to 0.1% market share, Leica has to do something.Remember, they want 1%. And the "they" is not the family Leitz any more. The market asks for (a subset of) AF, zoom lenses, sensor cleaning, sport shooting, WLAN, live view, video, etc. And primarily low prices. I have said it before: Leica cameras will never be bought on the strength of their low price. That is a market Leica must stay clear of if they want to survive. Now if they were after a 10, 20 or 30 percent market share that would pose a problem, but a 1 percent market share is perfectly compatible with ‘premium’ products – products that, while affordable, are more expensive than other offerings in the same market. They just need to strike the right balance between value and price (which is highly subjective assessment, of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 13, 2014 Share #271 Posted February 13, 2014 If this target demographic leads to 0.1% market share, Leica has to do something.Remember, they want 1%. And the "they" is not the family Leitz any more. The market asks for (a subset of) AF, zoom lenses, sensor cleaning, sport shooting, WLAN, live view, video, etc. And primarily low prices. Perhaps these iron sailors here could arrange themselves with iron ships? The A7 hype shows, that iron ships are welcomed, with the remarkable argument of buying a back-up camera. A typical back-up is something with perhaps less features, but more hardened, more reliable and a possibly simpler user interface. Jan At Leica prices their 1% market share lines right up with the top 1% of the world's most well off. The 1% wants what the 99% can't afford. If practical products bristling with features and reasonable pricing were the real criteria to capture the 1% … then Louis Vuitton would be out of business, along with a cornucopia of other luxury/premium brands. Exclusivity is the key attribute … along with some semblance of performance in the category … which for Leica is tactile solidity, reasonably good sensor performance and most of all … drum roll … their lenses. They still got it, and other brands (secretly) wish they did. IMHO, the M Monochrome and the S system deliver on that in spades. I'm sure many here would include the M240 on that list. I can see no reason why Leica cannot make a CL sized FF camera, with EVF and stellar AF lenses … all with a solid tactile feel and simple controls, (like the S system did so incredibly well). People who shoot rangefinders don't confuse their M with these other type cameras. Leica has to trust in that. Cramming more and more "consumer" cues into the M camera is taking their eye off the ball IMO. If the M240 didn't have a rangefinder I doubt it could command $7,000. It is the EXCLUSIVITY combined with the rangefinder user preference that makes it a success … not the tack ons. I'd bet that a majority of those who bought a M240 would have bought it anyway even if it didn't have all the tack ons. IMO, that opens up the prospect of a high spec alternative imaging tool with the emphasis on optics and simplicity … sans smiley face settings and all the other rubbish the masses clamor for and hardly ever use. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 13, 2014 Share #272 Posted February 13, 2014 To get to 1% sounds like it should be easy but we don't know how many extra boxes Leica has to shift in a year to hit that target. I agree that Leica doesn't have to be 'cheap' and naturally being an exclusive brand (I hate the term luxury for something like a camera) they are expected to be costly. That said even filthy rich people don't like being taken for mugs, and most are rich because they are careful how they spend their fortunes! Now, I've said before, I think people buy certain brands for their proven qualities and heritage. Many people buy a Land Rover/Range Rover not because they need a tough off-road vehicle, or are going on safari, but just because they think it's cool having a car they could almost go anywhere in. How many people buy divers watches but only ever get them wet in the shower? Think of any product that famous for being 'as used by......' Leica is known by most non-photographers who have heard the name mentioned in connection with famous photographers. They associate it with the best. If Leica was a start-up company, and launched a new camera costing $10K saying it was the best, I wonder how many people would buy into it? Leica are (rightly) trading on their heritage. Yes they need more new customers, yes they need more new products to attract those new customers. But at the same time they need to keep credible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted February 13, 2014 Share #273 Posted February 13, 2014 ... In any case, if Leica did offer a scanner, the product would almost certainly be a re-badged or re-cased Plustek scanner. I guess they could follow Pentax and reintroduce a slide/negative set-up that would turn an M into film copying device. I still have my Leica Beoon copier which is another way to do this. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 13, 2014 Share #274 Posted February 13, 2014 Exclusivity is the key attribute … along with some semblance of performance in the category … which for Leica is tactile solidity, reasonably good sensor performance and most of all … drum roll … their lenses. They still got it, and other brands (secretly) wish they did. IMHO, the M Monochrome and the S system deliver on that in spades. I'm sure many here would include the M240 on that list. I can see no reason why Leica cannot make a CL sized FF camera, with EVF and stellar AF lenses … all with a solid tactile feel and simple controls, (like the S system did so incredibly well)... .. and with a smart adapter to use R lenses as they were intended to be used. Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. While you can try to achieve both goals (and as far as I know Leica does)... As far as I'm concerned Leica has not achieved both goals. This existing customer is not pleased. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted February 13, 2014 Share #275 Posted February 13, 2014 ........ The market asks for (a subset of) AF, zoom lenses, sensor cleaning, sport shooting, WLAN, live view, video, etc. And primarily low prices.Jan The market is extremely unlikely to get the latter I'm afraid..... This is a problem then. I have said it before: Leica cameras will never be bought on the strength of their low price.............. James and Michael are spot on here. To expect any new Leica product to be priced competitively against similar mainstream products is to ignore the lessons of recent history and is counter intuitive to Leica's perceived brand identity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 13, 2014 Share #276 Posted February 13, 2014 Of course low does not mean lowest. If people is willing to pay 100 Euros for a piece of plastic called lens hood, low price is a difficult term. But an adapter with small tolerances has to and may cost something. Also, to buy something, that Mr. Barnack initiated 100 years ago, plays a role for some people (see Rolex, Vuiton). 1) Expected value for the money is another point. Software and licenses (video, live view, etc.) does not cost very much and can be sold for a good price. On the other hand I think SCN modes are not of advantage for a product in Europe. Jan 1) If you buy a Bentley, you become a Volkswagen. If you are in Dresden, don´t forget to visit the Volkswagen factory (Phaeton, Bentley). Best Monday to Friday. The main parts of the cars are delivered to the factory by street cars! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 13, 2014 Share #277 Posted February 13, 2014 Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. ... With all due respect, that is rubbish. The logical conclusion to that statement is that your existing customer base has no layalty and is constantly churning - effectively non-existent. The reality for the Leicas of this world is that unless they have a very strong reason (compelling event) as for example Fuji did when they shifted balance from film products to digital, they should seek to protect their "core" market AND extend into new products and markets not INSTEAD of. Ansoff was right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 13, 2014 Share #278 Posted February 13, 2014 Take a close look at what mostly the Chinese and also many other Asian nations are buying and that is probably going to be the focus of this T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 13, 2014 Share #279 Posted February 13, 2014 Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. What a curious assertion. So, a great product would not attract new buyers and loyal customers? The success of the M9, and countless other groundbreaking products in countless industries would not really support this. I'm sure you're right, that Leica will release a premium APS-C camera. We can expect it will appear very expensive, and lack the features of the competition. So, it will not be offered in general camera stores, but in Leica boutiques, where next to the M240 and S cameras, it will trade off its luxury name and it will look like a bargain. Bugger all to do with photography, or actually gaining 1% of the PHOTOGRAPHY market. Yep, prejudging. Yep, it will be a dud. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted February 13, 2014 Share #280 Posted February 13, 2014 Yep, prejudging. Indeed. Please don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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