mwilliamsphotography Posted February 12, 2014 Share #241 Posted February 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If the field of mirrorless APS-C cameras is incredibly competitive and getting more so, surely that is the direction where it is all going? Whereas we have exactly one vendor cramming a 36x24 mm sensor behind a mount originally designed for APS-C. Other vendors may or may not follow Sony’s example but one thing I am sure of: Leica won’t. "Where this is all going" is the path that Leica should take? In that case the R camera would still be here (in a modern form) and the M would have disappeared … because SLRs were "where it was all going". Point is, Leica has never been very successful at going where everyone else is slugging it out. Very good APSc cameras are priced under $1,000 … as Roger says in the article, pretty good lenses are available for these cameras from all sorts of makers who are stepping up their game … also reasonably priced. I'm not sure that crowded, price sensitive segment is very fertile ground for Leica. Besides, the real direction is not APSc … it is "smaller" cameras. That's the frontier that technology is opening up to higher performance products. "Exactly one vendor is making full fame small cameras designed for APSc" … well, someone had to be first … to bad it wasn't Leica … the inventor of small cameras. The A7/A7R E mount system success remains to be seen since the thing is brand new … The FE lenses seem to be getting decent reviews, and Zeiss have said they will make lenses for it … so … we'll see. However, Leica isn't faced with perpetuating a smaller existing mount for AF lenses when designing a new FF smaller camera with EVF … any more than they were with the S system. To bad you are so sure Leica won't do that. I think with-in a few years, APSc is a dead man walking. Personally, I wouldn't invest a penny in anything other than FF. Why would I? If it was simply to save money it sure wouldn't be anything from Leica. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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earleygallery Posted February 12, 2014 Share #242 Posted February 12, 2014 You have been posting on this forum for months that Leica will not make a full frame mirrorless (much as a large number of us would like them to). I assume that this is because you know something we don't. Michael is probably using the new T as we speak! He definately knows a lot that we don't..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 12, 2014 Share #243 Posted February 12, 2014 "Where this is all going" is the path that Leica should take? In that case the R camera would still be here (in a modern form) and the M would have disappeared … because SLRs were "where it was all going". It does seem odd that Leica said they couldn't compete in the DSLR market but feel they can compete in the mirrorless APSC market. I don't see how they differ much, just that I would expect a Leica DSLR system could command a premium quite easily, as it would appeal to some pro users, but can a consumer orientated mirrorless system? I said 'prepare to be underwhelmed' when the new camera was first rumored, and I expect it will be a mirrorless, viewfinderless, APSC camera. I'm sure it will be a very good one, but will it be worth the Leica premium consdering that most potential customers probably won't see any difference in quality between it and any of the Japanese models? That remains to be seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 12, 2014 Share #244 Posted February 12, 2014 Hold on, Leica don't need to cram a 36x24mm sensor behind a mount originally designed for APS-C, as their M-mount was always designed for full-frame. Designed for FF and for rangefinders; in fact Leica has been selling digital FF rangefinder cameras for five years now. But we weren’t talking about rangefinders, or were we? The question was “where its all going”, which I understood Marc to imply that it was EVIL FF cameras. But is that “where its all going”? Who should be going this route? Sony did, namely by building a FF camera based on their NEX system, but I am not convinced many others will follow by converting their APS-C systems to FF. And the existing FF DSLR systems aren’t really destined to become EVIL either. Also, how do you know that the E-mount wasn't originally designed as a full frame mount? I have explained that a couple of times I think; the first part of my Italian Flag saga in LFI also explains how a mount designed for a state-of-the-art FF EVIL camera would look markedly different (i.e. much bigger). You have been posting on this forum for months that Leica will not make a full frame mirrorless (much as a large number of us would like them to). If you are referring to an M-mount camera, there is absolutely no indication that Leica would build such a camera. And I don’t quite see Leica developing a FF EVIL camera with a new mount, either, although that might be slightly less unlikely. Not that Leica had never entertained such thoughts; in fact I think they did. It just didn’t appear to be such a swell idea in the end. What I strongly disagree with is any suggestion that Leica can't or shouldn't make such a camera, and I will not stop saying so simply because Leica is poised to release another dud. I don't follow your reasoning that Leica should enter a crowded market sector. They'll just look silly, with a mediocre (on paper) camera for a silly price. Why not postpone any such assessment until Leica has made an actual product announcement? I am not aware of any rumours with enough substance to base a verdict on. Leica's success (for Leica cameras) has always been in those parts of the market where they're a little different. Adding an interchangeable lens mount to the X2 & X-Vario line of cameras looks to me like compounding a cock-up. Any idea how they're getting along with their aim of 1% with this strategy? This is veering dangerously into armchair CEO territory, I’m afraid. Leica are convinced of their strategy (which I would not describe as “Adding an interchangeable lens mount to the X2 & X-Vario line of cameras” anyway) and we have to accept it is their business, neither yours nor mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share #245 Posted February 12, 2014 We may be certain that some forum members will be unhappy whatever outcome and some in this thread certainly should it have the expected APSc format (as seems likely from the candid interview quoted at the start of this thread). Leica Camera apparently has made a different assessment of the market though. Criticising the camera before its form and performance is even known seems pretty fruitless to me. I already have a full frame compact high quality camera for my M lenses. A compact high quality system with new Leica designed and/or built AF interchangeable lenses at a lower price point (than the M) could be a logical and appealing addition to their product range in my view. I wish them well. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what emerges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 12, 2014 Share #246 Posted February 12, 2014 We may be certain that some forum members will be unhappy whatever outcome. This is because it seems every new Leica product is eagerly anticipated by the digital M crowd to be some kind of cheaper yet as good or better M mount body they can use as a 'back up', and they get very upset when it's not. Look at the 'mini M' furore! That's why I said, prepare to be underwhelmed. Whatever the new camera is, I'm sure that it isn't going to be a cheaper M mount camera. It's mainly another product to bring new customers to Leica. Whether it's good enough to do that is another matter (by good enough I mean in overall terms compared to what else is available for those potential customers to spend their money on, beyond the Leica badge, appealing though that is to lots of people of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 12, 2014 Share #247 Posted February 12, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) We may be certain that some forum members will be unhappy whatever outcome and some in this thread certainly should it have the expected APSc format (as seems likely from the candid interview quoted at the start of this thread). Leica Camera apparently has made a different assessment of the market though. Criticising the camera before its form and performance is even known seems pretty fruitless to me. I already have a full frame compact high quality camera for my M lenses. A compact high quality system with new Leica designed and/or built AF interchangeable lenses at a lower price point (than the M) could be a logical and appealing addition to their product range in my view. I wish them well. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing what emerges. It's going to be too little, too late for the likes of me. I gave up when the bloated M came out, followed by the risible and poorly-positioned XV. I have instead moved ever further into Fuji X and am about to add an X-T1 and 56mm f1.2 to round out the system I have already built up of three bodies and six high-quality lenses - all bought new, and all with money Leica could have had, if... I still have and happily use my film Leicas and lenses as well as a Digilux 2 but the current Leica product set and, more crucially, future product trajectory leaves me disenfranchised, disillusioned and spending my cash elsewhere. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 12, 2014 Share #248 Posted February 12, 2014 Too late for me too. The M digital is simply too expensive for me, although I have my current M mount lenses, and film M and R gear. My spare cash has been going on Canon equipment lately, as I wanted to grow my digital system. I did think about a s/h M8 but the alternatives made more sense for my purposes. The new APSC camera/system might have been a contender for me, as it will clearly be positioned below the M in terms of price, but I suspect that it will have one of those horrible EVF's and I'd much rather use a DSLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2014 Share #249 Posted February 12, 2014 The problem being that people see Leica as the Panacea. It's always going to end in disappointment with unrealistic ideals and perceptions. It's Leica's own doing that they are perceived like this, wether it's completely intentional or not, they are are victim of their own success in that regard. But it's a success that is in the past that they do tend to exploit. What they had is a moment with the M9, where MFD Quality was in close reach. Wether they can build on that moment is another thing and I don't believe they have with the M. It's a side step with new features but there are other camera companies doing great and even better things, much cheaper. At the end of the day, except for probably less that 1%, money talks and bullshit walks. They make some nice products, their M Lenses in particular, but otherwise I think they are just another camera manufacturer who has some good releases and some average ones. But they are exploiting their past in a way they can't realistically match at the moment. It's like some rich kid shouting "my grandad was successful so I am too!" . It seems they have had more average of late, or at least they are perceived that way and perhaps are a victim of their own marketing, or maybe it's the user base. I do think the issue of price needs to be addressed. The M9 was a milestone and at the time it was peerless in IQ, the cost of entrance, I think, was justified. It's hard to keep that up though and to be honest I'm not quite sure what the draw card is anymore given that other companies have lifted their game on image AND build quality AND price. They can't even rest on their lenses anymore. Zeiss comes out with the Otus at a greatly reduced price to the APO-Summicron, it's 1.4 and, well, actually works without flare issues. Sigma is supposedly about to release an equivalent lens that equals or surpasses the Otus at an even cheaper price. So what exactly are we paying for now? There is this underlying feeling of resting on laurels and not keeping up with the times and a lingering feeling of "am i being ripped off here?" No one wants to feel like the Emperor in their new clothes drinking the Kool-aid, it's possibly the worst thing you can make a customer feel. I mean 90 friggin pound for a rubber finger loop for a grip? Seriously? The M as the same price is a total illusion too. You have to pay an extra £600 for a USB port and hundreds more for a limited use, out dated clip on wart of an EVF. It's a side step camera with not much gain in IQ when the rest of the world is getting significant upgrades in their systems. I have being using my M9 over my MFD, by choice, and I have been able to while the majority of my competition are using Canon, Nikon etc. I am sitting on my M9 for a while longer i hope we get a significant upgrade, but as my competition all start using MFD (much lower prices now) and Nikon D800's there's only so much longer I can keep it up because my clients are seeing the difference. I have a few camera systems from the past that were very, very costly at the time. I can't even sell them for £300 now. Is Leica M going to end up like that? I don't want another £30K paper weight - I am in half a mind to sell off my Leica gear and invest further into MF with the the new Phase One IQ250 which addresses most of my issues there. I hope Leica address this with a viable solution that keeps me happy using Leica because I really love the system and I hope it happens sometime soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 12, 2014 Share #250 Posted February 12, 2014 A recent review in NaturPhoto, as unbiased as you can get: A highly succesful marriage between tradition and modern with unusually high quality images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 12, 2014 Share #251 Posted February 12, 2014 This is because it seems every new Leica product is eagerly anticipated by the digital M crowd to be some kind of cheaper yet as good or better M mount body they can use as a 'back up', and they get very upset when it's not. Look at the 'mini M' furore! Yeah, that ghost of the not so distant past is still haunting Leica. M fans may take note: If there is something new waiting in the wings and its name isn’t reported to start with ‘M’, chances are it won’t be targeted at the M crowd. Whatever the new camera is, I'm sure that it isn't going to be a cheaper M mount camera. It's mainly another product to bring new customers to Leica. Sounds reasonable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted February 12, 2014 Share #252 Posted February 12, 2014 What they had is a moment with the M9, where MFD Quality was in close reach. Sorry your are talking in code what is MFD (not minimum focussing distance I guess)? Nick Medium Format Digital - Stuart Nordheimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 12, 2014 Share #253 Posted February 12, 2014 They can't even rest on their lenses anymore. Zeiss comes out with the Otus at a greatly reduced price to the APO-Summicron, it's 1.4 and, well, actually works without flare issues. Sigma is supposedly about to release an equivalent lens that equals or surpasses the Otus at an even cheaper price. Otus - have you seen the size and weight? I cannot imagine Leica ever considering to build such a lens, and certainly not for the M system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2014 Share #254 Posted February 12, 2014 Otus - have you seen the size and weight? It is large, yes. It doesn't bother me so much though when the results are that good. At least it works properly! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2014 Share #255 Posted February 12, 2014 Sorry your are talking in code what is MFD (not minimum focussing distance I guess)? Nick Medium Format Digital Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 12, 2014 Share #256 Posted February 12, 2014 I don't see this discussion as a debate about the next Leica camera which is probably well under way, as much as one about the direction of future products … (which is the title of this thread, BTW). Personally, I'm not pro or con the brand per se … I buy what I think works best for me. That has amounted to a considerable commitment to Leica products on my part (just shy of $100K in current inventory) … so, I am NOT allergic to new products from Leica as suggested. I also understand the need to refresh the flow of new buyers to Leica. My question is with Leica's self avowed Premium Positioning and how future products aline with that? Leica may be able to live on the red dot for a while, but how long and how successfully in the face of relentless competitive innovation? They side stepped the MFD competition with the S system, and used their niche status to do what others wouldn't … the MM. For a competitive example, Sony has just announced their 24 meg A6000 APSc camera with built-in EFV, hybrid focusing & 179 AF points, making it the fastest AF in the world, capable of tracking at 11 FPS … faster AF than a $7,000 pro sports camera … $650. Heck, I'm anti APSc, and that got my attention. How long before that tech shows up in their A7 FF series? IMO, Leica may shun the notion of a FF EVF CL sized AF camera because of the fear it'll impact M sales … But if they don't, someone else will (and is) … the leverage Leica has at their disposal is the same one they had with the S system: OPTICS … I believe the S would have flopped if it were not for the S lenses being so incredibly good. A new high performance AF camera need not beat the competition's tech, just the AF Leica lenses have to … something Leica is in a unique position to do. If Leica made such a camera, I'd abandon Sony in a New York heartbeat. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 12, 2014 Share #257 Posted February 12, 2014 Sorry your are talking in code what is MFD (not minimum focussing distance I guess)? Nick I assumed he meant Medium Format Digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 12, 2014 Share #258 Posted February 12, 2014 For a competitive example, Sony has just announced their 24 meg A6000 APSc camera with built-in EFV, hybrid focusing & 179 AF points, making it the fastest AF in the world, capable of tracking at 11 FPS … faster AF than a $7,000 pro sports camera … $650. Heck, I'm anti APSc, and that got my attention. How long before that tech shows up in their A7 FF series? Since I am pondering the repair or replacement of some of my DMR-related equipment (backup R8 and a few DMR battery packs) this got my attention too. It looks like AF I could live with. IMO, Leica may shun the notion of a FF EVF CL sized AF camera because of the fear it'll impact M sales … But if they don't, someone else will (and is) … the leverage Leica has at their disposal is the same one they had with the S system: OPTICS …. A new high performance AF camera need not beat the competition's tech, just the AF Leica lenses have to … something Leica is in a unique position to do. If Leica made such a camera, I'd abandon Sony in a New York heartbeat. This hypothetical camera would be at the top of my very short list of DMR replacements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2014 Share #259 Posted February 12, 2014 I cannot imagine Leica ever considering to build such a lens, and certainly not for the M system. OK, that's well and good. Build a smaller, more expensive, even one stop slower lens that is equal in performance and I will buy it for sure as I love the M, but at least make it so it works, is not hit and miss, does not need sending on for weeks at a time to be repaired and make it so it can be delivered to those wanting it. The APO is the perfect example of everything that seems to be bugging people about Leica and their silence on the matter is even more baffling. It's the worst kind of PR a company could want for their pride and joy flag ship demonstration pieces. The fact that the competition makes something 3 times larger and heavier does not stop me from wanting to consider it, particularly when it's faster and considerably cheaper and available. It delivers, it works that is what matters more to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 12, 2014 Share #260 Posted February 12, 2014 Designed for FF and for rangefinders; in fact Leica has been selling digital FF rangefinder cameras for five years now. But we weren’t talking about rangefinders, or were we? The question was “where its all going”, which I understood Marc to imply that it was EVIL FF cameras. But is that “where its all going”? Who should be going this route? Sony did, namely by building a FF camera based on their NEX system, but I am not convinced many others will follow by converting their APS-C systems to FF. And the existing FF DSLR systems aren’t really destined to become EVIL either. The M-mount is designed for full frame, so your argument about cramming a FF sensor behind an APS-C mount is irrelevant to the proposition that it is feasible for Leica to drop the optical viewfinder, and cost effectively develop a FF EVIL from the M mount and sensor. I have explained that a couple of times I think; the first part of my Italian Flag saga in LFI also explains how a mount designed for a state-of-the-art FF EVIL camera would look markedly different (i.e. much bigger). If you are referring to an M-mount camera, there is absolutely no indication that Leica would build such a camera. And I don’t quite see Leica developing a FF EVIL camera with a new mount, either, although that might be slightly less unlikely. Not that Leica had never entertained such thoughts; in fact I think they did. It just didn’t appear to be such a swell idea in the end. They don't need a new mount - they have one already, and lenses. The problem is introducing AF. Then again, doesn't the Nikon F mount take both it's state of the art AF lenses and legacy MF lenses ... Why not postpone any such assessment until Leica has made an actual product announcement? I am not aware of any rumours with enough substance to base a verdict on. Recent history. Why not express your opinion of what you might like, in the hope that Leica will match recent experiences (the mini M fiasco) with what loyal customers have been saying consistently for months (at least). This is veering dangerously into armchair CEO territory, I’m afraid. Leica are convinced of their strategy (which I would not describe as “Adding an interchangeable lens mount to the X2 & X-Vario line of cameras” anyway) and we have to accept it is their business, neither yours nor mine. What? I guess that's intended to be dismissive, if not just plain rude. This thread is about expressing our opinions on the future products. Armchair CEO indeed! By all means, simply accept whatever the great minds in the Leica executive dish up to you like some supine groupy. I've seen too many dumb decisions to simply bow and scrape and buy whatever's offered. I too have invested (far too) heavily in Leica M gear. What I have is an extremely narrow and limited system - focal lengths 21 to 90, optical VF only. I am using my Nikon gear and A7 more and more. It would be great if Leica filled that gap better. Nothing I have read so far suggests a technical reason why Leica cannot fill that gap with an M mount based FF EVIL. What I had read is discussion of a management decision to go to APS-C. That makes us all "Armchair CEOs", to use your pejorative phrase. I guess what that overlooks is that some of our armchairs have considerable experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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