Lenshacker Posted December 5, 2014 Share #661 Posted December 5, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The glass is not the culprit. The coatings are the culprit. http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-june-2014-en.pdf S8612 requires a protective coating to prevent corrosion when exposed to humidity. BG-18 does not. http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-bg18-june-2014-en.pdf The refractive index of the two is the same, curves shown are for the same thicknesses of glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 5, 2014 Posted December 5, 2014 Hi Lenshacker, Take a look here Strange white spots on M9 sensor?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jdlaing Posted December 5, 2014 Share #662 Posted December 5, 2014 http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-june-2014-en.pdf S8612 requires a protective coating to prevent corrosion when exposed to humidity. BG-18 does not. http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-bg18-june-2014-en.pdf The refractive index of the two is the same, curves shown are for the same thicknesses of glass. Like I said....the coatings are the culprit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted December 5, 2014 Share #663 Posted December 5, 2014 Change the glass, coatings will no longer be a problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted December 5, 2014 Share #664 Posted December 5, 2014 Change the glass, coatings will no longer be a problem. Change the coatings the glass is fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2014 Share #665 Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) I totally agree that forum readers/contributors are a very small minority of the M9 owners. I am pretty sure many M9 owners have never cleaned their sensors, never thought to check their sensors for dust, those who did mistook the delamination spots for dust... etc. Therefore the delamination issue, hopefully for Leica, will remain contained to a small number of people compared to the number of cameras sold. However, it is almost certain that Leica has known about this problem since the early days of the M9. I don't know how many of you remember some of the early posts on this and other Leica forums, saying something like: "I sent my M9 to Solms for CLA, and Leica very generously replaced the sensor for me". Delamination was never mentioned but I have read such posts many times and always wondered why Leica is so generous that they replace the sensor just for a CLA. I say, let Leica do their thing, and try not to make this problem into a big scandal. The owners have every thing to loose. Have the sensor replaced for free, sell the camera or keep it, but you don't want to devaluate it by making too much noise. As the saying goes, what you don't know can't hurt you. This is a remarkable approach that, in any case, cannot work in the age of the internet. If I remember correctly, earlier you wrote that every camera sold in Bangkok has had this problem. There is a lot of hot and humid weather in much larger Leica markets: Tokyo, a conurbation of 30 million people, has as much humidity from June-September, Houston for a much longer period, there's Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, Shanghai — and one could go on and on with this list of cities. Also, that the problem can arise without wet sensor cleaning is clear from my own experience, as my M9-P and M-Monochrom have both started to develop de-lamination spots for a second time some 8 and 10 months after their sensors were replaced for de-lamination, despite the fact that the new sensors have not been wet cleaned. All this indicates that the probability that de-lamination "will remain contained to a small number of people compared to the number of cameras sold" is unlikely. As stated earlier by many people in this thread, this is a design problem that needs to be handled as some form of recall formulated by Leica in a way that people don't have to send in their cameras for period as long and months and months. Handling this well is important for Leica's reputation, because people don't want to buy a deceptive product in this price range and don't want to have to repeatedly send in cameras for lengthy replacements or service. At the extreme, the approach you suggest would call for deletion of this thread and for everyone to pretend there is no problem by being good little boys and girls. Ain't gonna happen. Also you say, "sell the camera or keep it": some people earlier in the thread have already said that they wouldn't sell the camera to unsuspecting people...I wouldn't do that either, not to speak of the fact that the resale value of these cameras will plummet if this problem continues without a solution from Leica that is acceptable to the market. Edited December 5, 2014 by not_a_hero Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevidon Posted December 5, 2014 Share #666 Posted December 5, 2014 Fortunately 'pop' has a different approach...http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/355892-bookmarks-m9-sensor-corrosion-issue.html#post2837599 Referenced in post #640, for anyone following along here. Jeff Thanks Jeff, So I noticed. Good move. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 6, 2014 Share #667 Posted December 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) All the same, the excitement is in this forum only. The silence in the others (FM,RFF,DPI,DPR) is deafening... This is a remarkable approach that, in any case, cannot work in the age of the internet. If I remember correctly, earlier you wrote that every camera sold in Bangkok has had this problem. There is a lot of hot and humid weather in much larger Leica markets: Tokyo, a conurbation of 30 million people, has as much humidity from June-September, Houston for a much longer period, there's Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, Shanghai — and one could go on and on with this list of cities. Also, that the problem can arise without wet sensor cleaning is clear from my own experience, as my M9-P and M-Monochrom have both started to develop de-lamination spots for a second time some 8 and 10 months after their sensors were replaced for de-lamination, despite the fact that the new sensors have not been wet cleaned. All this indicates that the probability that de-lamination "will remain contained to a small number of people compared to the number of cameras sold" is unlikely. As stated earlier by many people in this thread, this is a design problem that needs to be handled as some form of recall formulated by Leica in a way that people don't have to send in their cameras for period as long and months and months. Handling this well is important for Leica's reputation, because people don't want to buy a deceptive product in this price range and don't want to have to repeatedly send in cameras for lengthy replacements or service. At the extreme, the approach you suggest would call for deletion of this thread and for everyone to pretend there is no problem by being good little boys and girls. Ain't gonna happen. Also you say, "sell the camera or keep it": some people earlier in the thread have already said that they wouldn't sell the camera to unsuspecting people...I wouldn't do that either, not to speak of the fact that the resale value of these cameras will plummet if this problem continues without a solution from Leica that is acceptable to the market. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 6, 2014 Share #668 Posted December 6, 2014 All the same, the excitement is in this forum only. The silence in the others (FM,RFF,DPI,DPR) is deafening... Jaap, Thanks. On your last point, I wonder why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirekti Posted December 6, 2014 Share #669 Posted December 6, 2014 Does anyone know if the price of the 2nd hand M9 went down since this thread has started? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photokalia Posted December 6, 2014 Share #670 Posted December 6, 2014 Can you share with us the evidence of your de-lamination please? Here's mine. I don't have shots showing the progression of the issue, but it started as a small number of spots that I assumed were dust. I didn't bother at first and just kept spotting them out in photoshop. The problem gradually spread (I'm not sure when it started, but at least 6 months) till it was all over the sensor. Please note that I got my M9 in 2011 and had not done any kind of sensor cleaning prior to taking this photo. I live in humid Singapore, and I took care to put my camera in my dry box after each outing. This is a full-size image of the top-right corner of the above image so you can see what the problem looks like up close. By this stage, it was kind of impossible for me to clone out the spots already, and I could tell something was seriously wrong because my rocket blower wasn't helping at all. The day before going down to Leica, I finally decided to try a wet clean. Again, no effect at all. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcsang Posted December 6, 2014 Share #671 Posted December 6, 2014 All the same, the excitement is in this forum only. The silence in the others (FM,RFF,DPI,DPR) is deafening... I don't know about that Jaap... over at RFF there's an active thread now 9 pages in - granted it's not Leica Camera Forum but it's got a significant amount of people over there that are just as perturbed about this as those here. Cheers, Dave 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 6, 2014 Share #672 Posted December 6, 2014 Jaap, Thanks. On your last point, I wonder why? So do I... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photokalia Posted December 6, 2014 Share #673 Posted December 6, 2014 Jaap, Thanks. On your last point, I wonder why? Maybe because we are all here now? I tried the various forums at first to see if anyone had encountered similar issues to me. But now that this thread has become the hub of information, it makes sense to concentrate our efforts here and make it easier to make ourselves heard. Only Leica will know how widespread the issue is. But I have a sense that it is. They told me that they could replace the sensor in Singapore where I live, but that I had to wait for a replacement sensor. My camera has been there since 29 October When I called them to enquire on the status of repair, they told me that there is a shortage of replacement sensors, and also that there is a "queue" of other cameras that came in before mine waiting for sensor replacement. I suspect I won't be getting my camera back before Christmas 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted December 6, 2014 Share #674 Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) This is a remarkable approach that, in any case, cannot work in the age of the internet. If I remember correctly, earlier you wrote that every camera sold in Bangkok has had this problem. There is a lot of hot and humid weather in much larger Leica markets: Tokyo, a conurbation of 30 million people, has as much humidity from June-September, Houston for a much longer period, there's Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, Shanghai — and one could go on and on with this list of cities. Also, that the problem can arise without wet sensor cleaning is clear from my own experience, as my M9-P and M-Monochrom have both started to develop de-lamination spots for a second time some 8 and 10 months after their sensors were replaced for de-lamination, despite the fact that the new sensors have not been wet cleaned. All this indicates that the probability that de-lamination "will remain contained to a small number of people compared to the number of cameras sold" is unlikely. As stated earlier by many people in this thread, this is a design problem that needs to be handled as some form of recall formulated by Leica in a way that people don't have to send in their cameras for period as long and months and months. Handling this well is important for Leica's reputation, because people don't want to buy a deceptive product in this price range and don't want to have to repeatedly send in cameras for lengthy replacements or service. At the extreme, the approach you suggest would call for deletion of this thread and for everyone to pretend there is no problem by being good little boys and girls. Ain't gonna happen. Also you say, "sell the camera or keep it": some people earlier in the thread have already said that they wouldn't sell the camera to unsuspecting people...I wouldn't do that either, not to speak of the fact that the resale value of these cameras will plummet if this problem continues without a solution from Leica that is acceptable to the market. You see the problem? Almost every M9 and derivatives sold in Bangkok has had the sensor replaced but no one is making so much fuss about it. There are similar cases I know of in Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. Some of them brand new MM and ME cameras. The problem is, why do you want to make so much noise if Leica replaced your sensor for free, and will keep on replacing it for free within a 3 year cycle. What more do you want? Do you seriously expect to use your M9 until your death? It's already 2002 obsolete technology in a 2009 model. And by the way, i didn't sell my M9 to an unsuspecting buyer. He asked me about the delamination problem and I told him honestly my opinion, which was considered too radical only a few pages back, which is that it is unavoidable on all M9 sensors no matter how you clean or how you keep it. I told him the sensor has just been replaced and he was happy to buy it. If you guys keep on making so much noise, you will create a snowball effect, and no one knows how it ends. Edited December 6, 2014 by edwardkaraa 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 6, 2014 Share #675 Posted December 6, 2014 I don't know about that Jaap... over at RFF there's an active thread now 9 pages in - granted it's not Leica Camera Forum but it's got a significant amount of people over there that are just as perturbed about this as those here. Cheers, Dave Yep! Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion on sensors http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145845 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted December 6, 2014 Share #676 Posted December 6, 2014 Maybe because we are all here now? I tried the various forums at first to see if anyone had encountered similar issues to me. But now that this thread has become the hub of information, it makes sense to concentrate our efforts here and make it easier to make ourselves heard. Only Leica will know how widespread the issue is. But I have a sense that it is. They told me that they could replace the sensor in Singapore where I live, but that I had to wait for a replacement sensor. My camera has been there since 29 October When I called them to enquire on the status of repair, they told me that there is a shortage of replacement sensors, and also that there is a "queue" of other cameras that came in before mine waiting for sensor replacement. I suspect I won't be getting my camera back before Christmas And if more people read this thread, and panic, and send their cameras in, you won't have your camera back until Christmas 2016. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 6, 2014 Share #677 Posted December 6, 2014 And if more people read this thread, and panic, and send their cameras in, you won't have your camera back until Christmas 2016. Panic? Really? It looks like a lot of folks over at RFF took issues with your views as well! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted December 6, 2014 Share #678 Posted December 6, 2014 Panic? Really? It looks like a lot of folks over at RFF took issues with your views as well! Except that they wrongly thought I was addressing the sensor problem, while my comments are to reply to claims that M cameras should last a lifetime as per Leica literature. Look guys, I am just trying to be the voice of reason that's all. I do not intend to offend anyone. I was exactly in the same situation in last December. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted December 6, 2014 Share #679 Posted December 6, 2014 I find it hard to believe that the majority of Leica owners only have 1 camera!! Surely if Leica service at Wetzlar or wherever have a large amount of returns they will employ more technicians to reduce the backlog. The longer owners wait for their serviced cameras to be returned the more they might consider alternatives in the future!! Don't worry about resale values, Ford never did with the Pinto' - Leica will likely continue to wear blinkers & plod through the quagmire. Watch out Ebay, a plethora of digital M's are about to hit the the For Sale section.. The plus side, 35mm M's will sell like hot cakes' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted December 6, 2014 Share #680 Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) What a load of uninformed ...... Edited December 6, 2014 by erl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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