Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[Edward Louis Marit]

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Moderators, the open letter in English will not open - at least in Apple devices ( iPhone 6)

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Malvolio]

It seems that there are fewer reported sensor issues with the M240, so perhaps this is a more positive sign moving forward. It does seem very odd though that Leica would persist in continuing to sell the ME and MM in circumstances where the sensor has an inherent design flaw.

[DigitalHeMan]

Moderators, the open letter in English will not open - at least in Apple devices ( iPhone 6)

 

 

Are you using Tapatalk by any chance? Tapatalk has an issue with opening pdf files from forums it seems. It does work fine if you open the thread directly in Safari, or choose the 'web view' from within Tapatalk.

[chrism]

This is all very depressing. I'm tempted to keep the M7 and MP, thin out the large collection of Leica lenses, and part exchange the M9 and MM for something like an XPro1.

 

Chris

[andybarton]

Why can't you moderators leave well enough alone?

 

What?

 

Trying to be helpful here, for crying out loud ...

Edited December 4, 2014 by andybarton

[M9reno]

I bought an expensive and fancy flat screen TV a few years ago. It packed up. It was out of warranty. I threw it away and got a new one. It was a box of electronics, just like a Leica digital. Isn't that simply a function of the brave new world (new and relatively untested technology) that sets it apart from the mechanical world?

 

Interesting thought, and I would bet (given the present situation) that such a view does exist at some point (or points) along the long decision-making chain running between Leica's suppliers and its management, and indeed onwards to its clients, when we choose what to buy. They (suppliers/management) and we seem not all to be on the same wavelength. The M9s sensor may be perfectly good - just not good enough for, or appropriate to the intended use of, a Leica M.

 

Personally, I'm starting to doubt whether Leica itself really knows what it is selling: disposable electronics, or something transcending the disposable cycle. Leica's clients are now taking a hard look at this and figuring out the answer for themselves. It is a real pity that Leica has not itself yet given an unequivocal answer.

[pop]

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What?

 

Trying to be helpful here, for crying out loud ...

 

Thanks, Andy; your kind offer is much appreciated.

[pop]

Personally, I'm starting to doubt whether Leica itself really knows what it is selling: disposable electronics, or something transcending the disposable cycle.

 

Leica might indeed be still on the steep end of the learning curve with regards to the life cycle management of their complex digital components. However, I think it not very helpful to discuss mechanical precision gear with some digital parts in the same terms as mass produced solid state digital devices. You don't throw away your car when the ignition needs to be adjusted or when some electronic parts misbehave, even critical ones, do you?

[jaapv]

Why can't you moderators leave well enough alone?

 

Could you please clarify this incomprehensible outburst?

Edited December 4, 2014 by jaapv

[Jon Warwick]

Leica might indeed be still on the steep end of the learning curve with regards to the life cycle management of their complex digital components. However, I think it not very helpful to discuss mechanical precision gear with some digital parts in the same terms as mass produced solid state digital devices. You don't throw away your car when the ignition needs to be adjusted or when some electronic parts misbehave, even critical ones, do you?

 

I think your comments are very sensible and in many ways I agree with you. But much as I adore Leica products (M4p, M7, now M240 owner, also own their binoculars etc....),, however, I am open to my guess that the digital version will potentially not be a long term item that will endure in quite the same way as the mechanical film versions - both in terms of % residual value, or reliability, or years that it can be serviced successfully. In many ways that makes me a bit sad - it takes away from the longevity that I had personally associated with Leica's more mechanical products when I first was attracted to them (back in the 90s). But a Leica rangefinder camera remains a phenomenal tool to handle and capture moments in time -- with no great substitute in my eyes -- and the lenses at least maintain that sense of longevity ("just brass and glass") that I've always liked. So I think I'm resigned to accepting that digital Ms might have a shorter life span, and it's the sensor (in my view) that is causing that gut feel , given my assumption that the sensor technology will be superseded or irreparable at some stage and potentially sooner than the mechanical aspects can be serviced. Aside from being a former user of medium and large format film, it is for those reasons that I'm also investigating the world of tech cameras ....,, products like Alpa that strive for perfection when it comes to mechanical precision for the camera body and lens (a true "long term investment"?) - whilst their construct of a separate digital back means the sensor is the add- on feature that is "standalone" in its obsolescence / upgrade need.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Jon Warwick

[k-hawinkler]

No outburst at all.

Just the simple observation that international forum members have been adding their thank yous to the German thread.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/355714-offener-brief-die-leica-camera-ag.html

This procedure, collecting all signatures in one place, seems to work.

That's all. Why change it now?

 

If you want, you could provide a seperate thread here with just the 2 language versions that directs folks to the German signature thread.

Edited December 4, 2014 by k-hawinkler

[Guest]

I think your comments are very sensible and in many ways I agree with you. But much as I adore Leica products (M4p, M7, now M240 owner, also own their binoculars etc....),, however, I am open to my guess that the digital version will potentially not be a long term item that will endure in quite the same way as the mechanical film versions - both in terms of % residual value, or reliability, or years that it can be serviced successfully. In many ways that makes me a bit sad - it takes away from the longevity that I had personally associated with Leica's more mechanical products when I first was attracted to them (back in the 90s). But a Leica rangefinder camera remains a phenomenal tool to handle and capture moments in time -- with no great substitute in my eyes -- and the lenses at least maintain that sense of longevity ("just brass and glass") that I've always liked. So I think I'm resigned to accepting that digital Ms might have a shorter life span, and it's the sensor (in my view) that is causing that gut feel , given my assumption that the sensor technology will be superseded or irreparable at some stage and potentially sooner than the mechanical aspects can be serviced. Aside from being a former user of medium and large format film, it is for those reasons that I'm also investigating the world of tech cameras ....,, products like Alpa that strive for perfection when it comes to mechanical precision for the camera body and lens (a true "long term investment"?) - whilst their construct of a separate digital back means the sensor is the add- on feature that is "standalone" in its obsolescence / upgrade need.

"Resigned to accepting that digital Ms might have a shorter life span?"

 

Shorter lifespan? As stated earlier, my M9-P and M-Monochrom had to have sensor replacements because of de-lamination 8 and 12 months ago. After sensor replacement there was no wet cleaning of these new sensors. Yesterday, I confirmed that both the M9-P and M-Monochrom sensors that had been replaced have developed de-lamination that will get progressively worse and will again require sensor replacement. That's four out of four sensors. That's a design fault, not a question that things might be a little worse than you expected.

Edited December 4, 2014 by not_a_hero

[pop]

.. So I think I'm resigned to accepting that digital Ms might have a shorter life span, and it's the sensor (in my view) that is causing that gut feel ...

 

So am I, but three years (-50%/+100%) is a bit on the short side, even so.

[pico]

 

Shorter lifespan? As stated earlier, my M9-P and M-Monochrom had to have sensor replacements because of de-lamination 8 and 12 months ago. After sensor replacement there was no wet cleaning of these new sensors. Yesterday, I confirmed that both the M9-P and M-Monochrom sensors that had been replaced have developed de-lamination...

 

 

Can you share with us the evidence of your de-lamination please?

[erl]

No outburst at all.

Just the simple observation that international forum members have been adding their thank yous to the German thread.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/355714-offener-brief-die-leica-camera-ag.html

This procedure, collecting all signatures in one place, seems to work.

That's all. Why change it now?

One reason to change it could be for klutzes like me who can't read German!

I did a stupid think and 'thanked' the post without being able to read what I was supporting. Certainly I have a good idea what it is about, but don't actually know. A version in English would improve my comfort. Especially as an M9 owner.

With regard to your objection to Andy's suggestion, please read it again, here,

 

"Maybe this should be in a new thread, so that Leica can see the split between German and international "Thankers"

 

Just a thought.

 

I am happy to move it if that's what people want."

 

I read that as no more than a suggestion of help, providing it is what is wanted.

 

Please think twice before bashing mods.

We don't take kindly to it.

We are not infallible, but we try hard.

We are just here to serve.

[Edward Louis Marit]

Are you using Tapatalk by any chance? Tapatalk has an issue with opening pdf files from forums it seems. It does work fine if you open the thread directly in Safari, or choose the 'web view' from within Tapatalk.

 

 

Yes I am as a matter of fact. I will try opening it with the web view as I don't have access to my computer right now - traveling.

Thanks

[Guest]

Can you share with us the evidence of your de-lamination please?

De-lamination is easy to see: circles with a darker area inside and an aureole (or halo) on the outside: quite distinct from dust spots. Looking though a loupe at the M9 sensor, they can look like Newton rings.

[pop]

One reason to change it could be for klutzes like me who can't read German!

I did a stupid think and 'thanked' the post without being able to read what I was supporting. Certainly I have a good idea what it is about, but don't actually know. A version in English would improve my comfort. Especially as an M9 owner.

 

If there's any doubt about that: an English version has been added to the German one and it's in the same post.

 

A bilingual version has also been added to this here thread, some pages ago, by digiuser_reloaded.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[k-hawinkler]

One reason to change it could be for klutzes like me who can't read German!

I did a stupid think and 'thanked' the post without being able to read what I was supporting. Certainly I have a good idea what it is about, but don't actually know. A version in English would improve my comfort. Especially as an M9 owner.

With regard to your objection to Andy's suggestion, please read it again, here,

 

"Maybe this should be in a new thread, so that Leica can see the split between German and international "Thankers"

 

Just a thought.

 

I am happy to move it if that's what people want."

 

I read that as no more than a suggestion of help, providing it is what is wanted.

 

Please think twice before bashing mods.

We don't take kindly to it.

We are not infallible, but we try hard.

We are just here to serve.

 

The German and English versions are posted earlier in this thread.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2837056-post590.html

Thanks to pop for the translation.

Edited December 5, 2014 by k-hawinkler

[Edward Louis Marit]

Read it in web view and signed it, thanks. Now I am afraid to use my Monochrom in case it encounters any humidity having been just had the sensor replaced 2 months ago.