Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[CalArts 99]

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Leica should contemplate joining the real world of camera repairs.

 

afaik, only Canon and Nikon (NPS) have this kind of pro repair service. The others, like Sony/Fuji/Richoh-Pentax/Panasonic, apparently subcontract camera repair (in the US, it's Precision Camera Repair.) The only pro Sony service I know about is for cine production, commercial audio, and broadcast.

 

But since Leica does claim to also be a "professional" camera manufacturer, then they could consider offering a pro repair service. However, as they are already limited, I think that would just add a lot of extra cost right now (they'd likely need to completely reorganize their existing service department.) And charging extra for that service would mean Leica ownership will be even more costly. Probably the best they can do is to slowly grow and improve their service department. I'm guessing that they kind of know already that it's not 100% efficient.

 

And btw, they also know there's an issue with the CCD sensors. But to speculate what they are doing about it or even that they could go out of business from this, is just being reactionary to a bad news/no news event. It is what it is right now, and in time they will have a solution of some kind. A mistake was probably to have posted on this forum with a hobbled response that wasn't quite ready for prime time. They should have just said that they will have an official statement soon while they worked behind the scenes to get all their ducks in a row.

 

I don't know know this (speculation only on my part ), but it appears that while Leica looks good on the outside (fancy advertising and fancy Leica boutiques) that they might have an internal management structure that needs some work.

[Jeff S]

One can get guaranteed responsive service from Leica (loaners, etc), but not for a piddling $8000 camera; that requires a $20000+ S.

 

Jeff

[pgk]

But since Leica does claim to also be a "professional" camera manufacturer, then they could consider offering a pro repair service.

Ummmmm. FWIW they do. Its the best I've used and has certainly proved better and quicker than the other (two;) - go figure) pro services I've had occasion to use, although I've only used it three times - once for a damaged (dropped onto concrete) camera & lens, once for a remap and once for a failed switch. But its only available for 'pro' use afaik.

[CalArts 99]

Ummmmm. FWIW they do. Its the best I've used and has certainly proved better and quicker than the other (two;) - go figure) pro services I've had occasion to use, although I've only used it three times - once for a damaged (dropped onto concrete) camera & lens, once for a remap and once for a failed switch. But its only available for 'pro' use afaik.

 

I didn't know that they had a pro service. I was responding to Algrove's experience with Leica repair compared to his experience with Canon CPS. What is the service called at Leica? LPS? And also I realize now that Leica does have a 'pro' service with the S camera system, as Jeff S points out. But I didn't know anything about the Leica M pro services.....

[uhoh7]

Obviously, by now the symptoms are pretty clear.

 

Any definitive word as to the exact design defect?

 

I've been holding off on cleaning my sensor which was new in January, but Edwards comments about uncleaned oil spots becoming permanent have me reaching for the swabs and isopropyl.

 

One has to wonder considering all the aftermarket work done today with sensors, if it might be possible to have the cover glass replaced.

 

Do we know when the last production run of a variant of the M9/MM sensor was?

 

Lastly, Edward, sorry I already asked you this at RFF, but missed the answer, what was the time frame from your M9 purchase to appearance of delamination? Anyone in a humid area, please chime in.

 

I'm lucky to be in a very dry place.

 

PS Brian Sweeny seems to have narrowed it down to part numbers:

Brian Sweeney thinks there is a solution. See these posts:

 

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread.php?t=735&page=3&p=7502#post7502

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread.php?t=735&page=3&p=7503#post7503

 

Maybe Leica is working on a permanent solution. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

 

-Thomas

TY to Thomas at RFF for that link.

 

Brian identifies a replacement varient for the glass, and maximal in the USA is replacing 5D sensor glass/filters all the time for about 400USD. Perhaps some of us should bring them into the loop.

Edited December 9, 2014 by uhoh7

[edwardkaraa]

 

Lastly, Edward, sorry I already asked you this at RFF, but missed the answer, what was the time frame from your M9 purchase to appearance of delamination? Anyone in a humid area, please chime in.

 

 

Hi Charlie,

 

I bought mine new in September 2012. I checked the sensor immediately for any cracks and found 4-5 spots that I believed were from oil. I only used a blower bulb for the first 7-8 months. The spots were multiplying quickly and getting larger. I had over 100 spots around the time I decided to do a wet cleaning with sensor swabs plus . I was surprised that most of the spots were still there, even after repeated cleanings. I asked for advice over here and it was suggested these were dried oil spots so I bought smear away liquid, and that smeared the sensor actually without removing any spot. So I decided that only Leica can clean the sensor professionally and took the camera to my local dealer, who confirmed upon inspection that the coatings were delaminating. My dealer sent the camera to Leica in early December 2013. I got it back in February.

 

It needs to be mentioned that Bangkok climate is not overly humid. Probably about 50-70% in normal times. It is very hot though so that could have affected the coatings too. I carry my camera in a small bag everywhere, but keep it in a dry cabinet when at home.

Edited December 9, 2014 by edwardkaraa

[jaapv]

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I think it is extremely naive to think that nobody at Leica is able to read a spec sheet. If it were that simple, the problem would not even have arisen.

We tend to forget that at the time of introduction everybody was extremely surpised that it was even possible to create a full-frame sensor for a rangefinder camera and its heritage lenses. To suppose now that it suddenly is just a matter of choosing another part is far too simple thinking.

Obviously, by now the symptoms are pretty clear.

 

Any definitive word as to the exact design defect?

 

I've been holding off on cleaning my sensor which was new in January, but Edwards comments about uncleaned oil spots becoming permanent have me reaching for the swabs and isopropyl.

 

One has to wonder considering all the aftermarket work done today with sensors, if it might be possible to have the cover glass replaced.

 

Do we know when the last production run of a variant of the M9/MM sensor was?

 

Lastly, Edward, sorry I already asked you this at RFF, but missed the answer, what was the time frame from your M9 purchase to appearance of delamination? Anyone in a humid area, please chime in.

 

I'm lucky to be in a very dry place.

 

PS Brian Sweeny seems to have narrowed it down to part numbers:

 

TY to Thomas at RFF for that link.

 

Brian identifies a replacement varient for the glass, and maximal in the USA is replacing 5D sensor glass/filters all the time for about 400USD. Perhaps some of us should bring them into the loop.

[jaapv]

I didn't know that they had a pro service. I was responding to Algrove's experience with Leica repair compared to his experience with Canon CPS. What is the service called at Leica? LPS? And also I realize now that Leica does have a 'pro' service with the S camera system, as Jeff S points out. But I didn't know anything about the Leica M pro services.....

It is not just a pro service. Anybody can purchase a "first class ticket" by choosing the Express Service (200 Euro). Provided the parts are available one is looking at a turnaround within the week.

[lm_user]

A lot of discussion about sensor cleaning, long term oil deposits and humidity as the root cause of delamination. I wiill add one more: Condensation forming on the sensor during the transition from air conditioning to humid emvironment.

 

Btw. I have no skin in this game - still using an m8 with cancelled plans to upgrade to m9 in the future

[jaapv]

Good point.

[mmradman]

I think it is extremely naive to think that nobody at Leica is able to read a spec sheet. If it were that simple, the problem would not even have arisen.

We tend to forget that at the time of introduction everybody was extremely surpised that it was even possible to create a full-frame sensor for a rangefinder camera and its heritage lenses. To suppose now that it suddenly is just a matter of choosing another part is far too simple thinking.

 

You are correct 100%, the fact that full frame M9 saw light of day is major achievement.

However not everything is as we are led to believe, and that has been shown here on numerous occasions – notable recent hardware issues with M8, M9, APO 50mm for instance. Products are brought to market with inherent flaws, buyers are left to discover for themselves. Free service sometimes outside warranty alleviates some of the anxiety but once manufacturer declares intention to start charging for own errors customers start looking less favourably.

Jaap, as you said yourself in this thread, Leica has narrow time window to address this issue to everyone’s satisfaction, once this kind of bad news becomes common knowledge chances are that digital M cameras market (new & S/H) will suffer.

My M9P sensor is looking good at the moment, I wish it stays that way but I would expect any future manufacturer flaw to be treated accordingly – up to the reasonable/customary number of years after the manufacture/sale of M-E is stopped.

 

p.s. Brian Sweeny who informed us that alternative glass should have been used to start with seems to be somebody in the know.

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread...=7502#post7502

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread...=7503#post7503

[erl]

Just pulled my head out of the sand and got the courage to examined my M9 sensor. I'm 90% sure it is delaminating. I am taking it to local Leica repairer in Melbourne tomorrow who are authorized to replace the sensor. The big hassle is they cannot order the spare parts until confirmation of needing them!

 

This means, in practical terms, my camera will most likely be out of service till next February. The current sensor is just over 18 months old, the camera is original from 2009.

 

Pondering the future it seems I have film as my only option with my remaining gear. I really like film, but it does not cover all bases for what I do, or the way I do it.

 

This is the first time I have not had a backup camera in my career, simply because I can not afford to anymore.

 

I guess the wall is written upon.

Edited December 9, 2014 by erl

[jaapv]

Brian is an excellent photographer - and teacher of photography. But a sensor guru he is not. He seems to be quite handy at Google in this case. My point is that we do not know the parameters required for such a specialized application, and must assume that somebody at Leica has read the spec sheets - and conferred with Schott.

You are correct 100%, the fact that full frame M9 saw light of day is major achievement.

 

However not everything is as we are led to believe, and that has been shown here on numerous occasions – notable recent hardware issues with M8, M9, APO 50mm for instance. Products are brought to market with inherent flaws, buyers are left to discover for themselves. Free service sometimes outside warranty alleviates some of the anxiety but once manufacturer declares intention to start charging for own errors customers start looking less favourably.

 

Jaap, as you said yourself in this thread, Leica has narrow time window to address this issue to everyone’s satisfaction, once this kind of bad news becomes common knowledge chances are that digital M cameras market (new & S/H) will suffer.

 

My M9P sensor is looking good at the moment, I wish it stays that way but I would expect any future manufacturer flaw to be treated accordingly – up to the reasonable/customary number of years after the manufacture/sale of M-E is stopped.

 

p.s. Brian Sweeny who informed us that alternative glass should have been used to start with seems to be somebody in the know.

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread...=7502#post7502

http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread...=7503#post7503

[mmradman]

Can't really argue on GURU part as I don’t know Mr Sweeny personally but from his own writing on www.leicaplace.com he appears to be professionally involved in Opto-Electronics business, that makes him well qualified to contribute in this debate.

Outside field of Opto-Electronic some of us know that, occasionally, manufacturers make design errors, how these problems are addressed and solved either make or break reputations.

 

Brian is an excellent photographer - and teacher of photography. But a sensor guru he is not. He seems to be quite handy at Google in this case. My point is that we do not know the parameters required for such a specialized application, and must assume that somebody at Leica has read the spec sheets - and conferred with Schott.

[jaapv]

.

 

[.....] how these problems are addressed and solved either make or break reputations.

That I could not agree with more

[bill]

There is very little that would lead me to break my self-imposed silence on this Forum but I feel I must speak in defence of my fellow LeicaPlace moderator.

 

Brian is a skilled engineer and has extensive relevant experience - he has optimised and "remanufactured" more lenses than I care to mention. Outside of the silo of this Forum he is well-known for his skill, the knowledge that he shares freely and his generally helpful approach. It is not helpful or appropriate for a moderator here to scoff at Brian's findings.

 

When at the bottom of a hole, the best advice is to stop digging. Digital Leica owners - and Leica itself - are at the bottom of a very deep hole right now; I would have thought that a ray of light would be welcomed not slapped away.

 

Carry on.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

Ok, here's the shocker, I've now gone back into photoshop and had a good look at several blower brush sensor cleaning test shots I made in August 2013 which clearly show many of these weird circular rings with central dark spots and compared them with shots made a week or so ago and the more recent shots show far fewer of these marks although they do appear larger.

 

There was some confusion on my part evident in this earlier post caused by spots on the sensor that I had subsequently managed to remove and were therefore neither de-lamination nor corrosion.

 

I've now had a chance to thoroughly re-examine files taken over a period of about 18 months. The first test I have was created in June 2013 and shows how the problem started. It appears in the same place in subsequent tests and in each test the number of the rings with dark centres and lighter outer halo on the sensor has increased. I believe this to be de-lamination which seems to be the precursor to corrosion.

 

The first image was made on the 29 June 2013, the second today. Both were shot with the same 35mm lens at 1/125 sec at f16. Both are shown at 100% and are towards the top right of the sensor. The sensor now has about 20 of these spots in total.

 

What to do? I own a two year old M9-P in immaculate condition with less than 1,000 actuations that I couldn’t sell even if I wanted. I can’t afford to be without the camera for more than a month or so. It seems the turnaround for the “repair” is far greater. If that’s the case it would mean that through no fault of my own I would have to dig deep in my pockets and buy another camera, which perhaps understandably is not something I’m keen to do. I’m also less than happy with a replacement substandard sensor; not my idea of a fix. If I leave it and do nothing the problem is only going to get worse. At this stage if Leica were to offer a fair upgrade that’s probably the route I’d take but thus far there has been no such fair offer.

 

Not a happy bunny.

 

http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/M9_P_Test1.jpg

 

http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/M9_P_Test2.jpg

Edited December 9, 2014 by KeithL

[jaapv]

Thanks Bill, it seems there are two Brian Sweeneys prominent in photography. My mistake.

However, that does not take away from the fact that Leica knows their own design best and cannot be presumed to be so obtuse as to not have investigated obvious solutions.

[edwardkaraa]

There was some confusion on my part evident in this earlier post caused by spots on the sensor that I had subsequently managed to remove and were therefore neither de-lamination nor corrosion.

 

I've now had a chance to thoroughly re-examine files taken over a period of about 18 months. The first test I have was created in June 2013 and shows how the problem started. It appears in the same place in subsequent tests and in each test the number of the rings with dark centres and lighter outer halo on the sensor has increased. I believe this to be de-lamination which seems to be the precursor to corrosion.

 

The first image was made on the 29 June 2013, the second today. Both were shot with the same 35mm lens at 1/125 sec at f16. Both are shown at 100% and are towards the top right of the sensor. The sensor now has about 20 of these spots in total.

 

What to do? I own a two year old M9-P in immaculate condition with less than 1,000 actuations that I couldn’t sell even if I wanted. I can’t afford to be without the camera for more than a month or so. It seems the turnaround for the “repair” is far greater. If that’s the case it would mean that through no fault of my own I would have to dig deep in my pockets and buy another camera, which perhaps understandably is not something I’m keen to do. I’m also less than happy with a replacement substandard sensor; not my idea of a fix. If I leave it and do nothing the problem is only going to get worse. At this stage if Leica were to offer a fair upgrade that’s probably the route I’d take but thus far there has been no such fair offer.

 

Not a happy bunny.

 

http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/M9_P_Test1.jpg

 

http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/M9_P_Test2.jpg

 

I would say it's not worth sending the camera away for a few delamination spots. I sent mine when it had over 100. Of course that is unless it's nearing the end of its warranty, then it is highly recommended

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[keithlaban.co.uk]

I would say it's not worth sending the camera away for a few delamination spots. I sent mine when it had over 100. Of course that is unless it's nearing the end of its warranty, then it is highly recommended

 

Well, it's over two years old now which means it's out of warranty. But Leica have said on this forum they will in any case "fix" it for free if it's under three years old, so I have some time on my side to watch for developments.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KeithL