Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[bocaburger]

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So far all of Leica's major digital woes have been the result of them relying on the expertise of partners and subcontractors. We do not know what communications there have been between Leica and the sensor subcontractor over the product cycle of these cameras. For all we know, the subcontractor could have issued multiple assurances to Leica that "we found the issue and are taking steps to correct it in subsequent production" which could have been merely erroneous or possibly even disingenuous.

 

To me the crucial issue is what Leica does to make matters right by their customers. Replacing gone bad sensors with sensors destined to go bad is not a proper solution. Charging them for it is not a proper solution no matter how old the camera is. Making people pony up thousands for a new camera is not a proper solution.

 

There are only 2 proper solutions IMO. One is reeingineering the sensor so the coating doesn't delaminate, and issuing a no-cost recall of every M9-derivative camera. The other is offering to buy back these cameras at a price pro-rated from the time of purchase with a terminal value of 50%.

 

The ball is in Leica's court now, and as Jaap says, they have a narrow window of time in which to react.

[k-hawinkler]

So far all of Leica's major digital woes have been the result of them relying on the expertise of partners and subcontractors. We do not know what communications there have been between Leica and the sensor subcontractor over the product cycle of these cameras. For all we know, the subcontractor could have issued multiple assurances to Leica that "we found the issue and are taking steps to correct it in subsequent production" which could have been merely erroneous or possibly even disingenuous.

 

To me the crucial issue is what Leica does to make matters right by their customers. Replacing gone bad sensors with sensors destined to go bad is not a proper solution. Charging them for it is not a proper solution no matter how old the camera is. Making people pony up thousands for a new camera is not a proper solution.

 

There are only 2 proper solutions IMO. One is reeingineering the sensor so the coating doesn't delaminate, and issuing a no-cost recall of every M9-derivative camera. The other is offering to buy back these cameras at a price pro-rated from the time of purchase with a terminal value of 50%.

 

The ball is in Leica's court now, and as Jaap says, they have a narrow window of time in which to react.

 

 

Please, have a look here.

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2421793&postcount=236

 

An interesting attempt!

[Edward Louis Marit]

As an aside I visited Leitz Park today ( I have a one day layover in Frankfurt en route to a conference in Cairo) and there was a prominent display of MM's for sale.

I think what I find disturbing is that they continue to sell product knowing that there is a design flaw. I would feel somewhat better if they stopped selling new ones while they look for w solution.

[DigitalHeMan]

As an aside I visited Leitz Park today ( I have a one day layover in Frankfurt en route to a conference in Cairo) and there was a prominent display of MM's for sale.

I think what I find disturbing is that they continue to sell product knowing that there is a design flaw. I would feel somewhat better if they stopped selling new ones while they look for w solution.

 

 

I assume you shared that with the assistants on the shop. What was their reaction?

[Edward Louis Marit]

I assume you shared that with the assistants on the shop. What was their reaction?

 

 

I didn't although it crossed my mind more than once....

[Edward Louis Marit]

They did offer however to take my picture with Santa on a red Vespa in the little studio they have set up in the store...

[Jeff S]

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They did offer however to take my picture with Santa on a red Vespa in the little studio they have set up in the store...

 

Did you notice any dehumidifiers around?

 

Jeff

[edwardkaraa]

Did you notice any dehumidifiers around?

 

Jeff

 

They were using Nikons with Zeiss glass

[edwardkaraa]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/349140-leica-customer-service-read-what-happened.html

 

Delamination Secret code is dust under the glass cover )))

[fahadm]

As an aside I visited Leitz Park today ( I have a one day layover in Frankfurt en route to a conference in Cairo) and there was a prominent display of MM's for sale.

I think what I find disturbing is that they continue to sell product knowing that there is a design flaw. I would feel somewhat better if they stopped selling new ones while they look for w solution.

 

Leica cant stop selling the MM and M-E now. Its too late. The financial hit might bankrupt them. There are banks, dealers, distributors, suppliers and clients to compensate.

 

What I expect Leica to do is "keep silent" and seek legal counsel during Q1 2015. If the press starts to attack and sales get impacted, then they might issue a press release.

 

Otherwise, things will remain as is. Tough luck for me and all those who paid a premium for an under-specced camera.

[georg16nik]

In the light of their 100th anniversary, it must be tough to deal with unreliable products made in the last 5 years.

IMHO, it's just the way contemporary designs are - good in theory.. but what a mess in practice.

 

Hardware, software; A seasonal thing.

 

Leica are in a situation where they should answer to very high expectations which might not be very substantiated in this day and age.

The age of deception.

 

My sympathies for the folks who are dealing with this misfortune.

[plasticman]

Well mine has been very adequately tested first as a demo unit, and then by me for nearly 3 years and has no problem with de-lamination. And I've used it all sorts of situations including a very damp and soggy dive boat for a week. So where does that leave us? I'm sorry but this all seems like a classic blown-up internet storm with multitudes of 'experts' weighing in, but at the end of the day its impossible to tell how many of the thousands of M9s actually are suffering from the problem and whether its is endemic, batch related or just a rare and unfortunate QC issue.

 

I'm off to enjoy taking some photos with my M9 and my M8 (crappy sensor and all).

 

I'll wait to see how this all pans out but in the meantime intend to actually shoot some images.....

 

So your line is "my camera is alright, everyone else is wrong". Your sample of one (probably) unaffected camera (how closely have you looked?) is hardly more useful than your repetitive criticism of everyone else being 'internet experts' on this issue.

[lm_user]

Well mine has been very adequately tested first as a demo unit, and then by me for nearly 3 years and has no problem with de-lamination. And I've used it all sorts of situations including a very damp and soggy dive boat for a week. So where does that leave us? I'm sorry but this all seems like a classic blown-up internet storm with multitudes of 'experts' weighing in, but at the end of the day its impossible to tell how many of the thousands of M9s actually are suffering from the problem and whether its is endemic, batch related or just a rare and unfortunate QC issue.

 

I'm off to enjoy taking some photos with my M9 and my M8 (crappy sensor and all).

 

I'll wait to see how this all pans out but in the meantime intend to actually shoot some images.....

 

If it were only a few sensors - Leica would continue to fix them for free.

[Guest]

I just looked at the (currently) last post in the French thread referred to earlier — it's on page 48. Here is a translation:

I think we could draft a joint letter to Leica's attention asking for official answers to our questions. It would be sent by each member of the forum who wishes or is concerned. In this letter we would tell Leica that we are ready to turn to a consumer association to take collective action if we do not have adequate answers and proposals...

 

I can, if you wish, prepare a first draft of the letter and then offer it to those who would like to work on it ...

[andybarton]

The open letter has already been drafted on this forum.

[k-hawinkler]

The open letter has already been drafted on this forum.

 

Their letter may have a different flavor and emphasis?

[Guest]

Yes, considering the threat of taking collective action through a consumer association, not to speak of sending individual letters or emails as opposed to clicking a "thanks" button.

[Guest]

Well mine has been very adequately tested first as a demo unit, and then by me for nearly 3 years and has no problem with de-lamination. And I've used it all sorts of situations including a very damp and soggy dive boat for a week. So where does that leave us? I'm sorry but this all seems like a classic blown-up internet storm with multitudes of 'experts' weighing in, but at the end of the day its impossible to tell how many of the thousands of M9s actually are suffering from the problem and whether its is endemic, batch related or just a rare and unfortunate QC issue.

 

I'm off to enjoy taking some photos with my M9 and my M8 (crappy sensor and all).

 

I'll wait to see how this all pans out but in the meantime intend to actually shoot some images.....

And here is the typical, "I'm off to take pictures". But so am I, the difference being that my M9-P and M-Monchrom have been tested somewhat more "adequately" in that they now both have the beginnings of de-lamination, after both having their original sensor replaced 12 and 8 months ago, respectively.

 

One would have though that "pgk" must know that "very adequately" testing for a camera that sells all over the world with a whole range of climates — and more than 50% of Leica's sales are outside of Northern Europe — does not mean having the camera as a demo in a store and then three years in a temperate climate or a week on a "damp and soggy dive boat". Maybe it takes two weeks on a dive boat or maybe the ambient temperature has to be higher; maybe there have to be sudden changes in humidity and temperature, such as when you step out into 38°C humid weather in the tropics and there's condensation all over the camera after a two-hour air-conditioned car ride.

 

Clearly, there are a lot of possibilities that accelerated product testing might have a chance to discover. Or maybe Leica or Schott did such testing but, even rigorous tests did not hit the variable of the combinations or conditions of time, temperature and humidity that trigger the initiation of de-lamination. From all the indications we have read in this thread, including my four out four sensors having gone bad, the problem is not a trivial or limited one.

Edited December 7, 2014 by not_a_hero

[mirekti]

Could this issues send Leica out of business? If not, could it seriously slow down further M lens and camera development?

Has anybody idea how many M9 type CCD sensor users are there?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[CalArts 99]

And here is the typical, "I'm off to take pictures".

 

It's just a coping method. People respond to potentially bad news in all sorts of ways that allow them to cope. It's the same on any consumer product forum. When some uncomfortable news comes out about a possible product failure, owners will respond with fear, resignation, indignation, denial, apprehension, anger, you name it. Responses will cover the whole range of human emotions. It's pretty normal behavior.