Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[k_g_wolf ✝]

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>> LEGEND

 

Welcome to the LUF, BTW, and sorry you didn´t have a better reason for your first posts ...

 

Stay tune and don´t panic, LEICA is known for fair responses towards technical problems

with their gear within AND - many times - without guarantee spans.

 

 

Regards

GEORG

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[mwilliamsphotography]

What a struggle Leica has had in the digital age. M8 IR issue, cracked sensors, now this.

 

However, I have a little less sympathy for a company that positions itself as an elite maker of photographic tools which are priced as such, builds a multi-million dollar new facility, yet makes their problems their customer's problems.

 

Leica chose the supplier for their sensors, not me. I chose their products because of my long term use of M cameras, a preference for the rangefinder way of making images, and an extensive investment in M optics which all only optimally work on a M camera.

 

My supposition with any purchase is that it works, and not for some unexpectedly truncated period of time, nor involving surrendering my camera for extended vacations in Germany ... then being told the replacement will not fix the original problem. Hope the airbag fixes aren't based on the same principle : -)

 

I don't want a M240 at a deal ... my camera is a MM ... and now my trust in it has been "corroded".

 

- Marc

[Don Morley]

Don - why should this be Leica UK rather than Leica Camera AG? In my case, I bought the camera in Paris and live and use in a couple of other countries. What would I need to do to support this effort? The effort being to get Leica Camera AG to take a more straightforward approach in recognizing the problem and in moving to a recall, even if they say that the recall will be delayed for some months until the Company finds a permanent solution, whatever that may be.

 

Any action I take would have to be with the UK Trading Standards Office or UK Courts because my camera was bought in the UK, likewise I would imagine you would probably have to deal through the French equivalent legal body's Don:mad:

[jdlaing]

What a struggle Leica has had in the digital age. M8 IR issue, cracked sensors, now this.

 

However, I have a little less sympathy for a company that positions itself as an elite maker of photographic tools which are priced as such, builds a multi-million dollar new facility, yet makes their problems their customer's problems.

 

Leica chose the supplier for their sensors, not me. I chose their products because of my long term use of M cameras, a preference for the rangefinder way of making images, and an extensive investment in M optics which all only optimally work on a M camera.

 

My supposition with any purchase is that it works, and not for some unexpectedly truncated period of time, nor involving surrendering my camera for extended vacations in Germany ... then being told the replacement will not fix the original problem. Hope the airbag fixes aren't based on the same principle : -)

 

I don't want a M240 at a deal ... my camera is a MM ... and now my trust in it has been "corroded".

 

- Marc

 

Unfair analogy with airbags. Spots on a sensor, IF YOU EVEN GET THEM, will not cost you your life. I don't think Leica stored their parts outside in a parking lot in the sun until they were needed.

In protest I think you should smash your camera with a hammer and send the pieces back to Leica.

[Don Morley]

Don, I empathize with your emotions, I too am potentially an affected user.

My question is this: what are you seeking?

Financial compensation, or a long term, proper fix to your camera.

 

Erl, all I want is for Leica to admit moral responsibility and accept it is they rather than we customers who should be paying to for put matters right. Red herrings about such as wet cleaning are just that. I.E. to throw us of the scent, and neither am I impressed by hints about favorable upgrade deals!

 

This same tactic used when owners discovered there M8's could not be repaired, and if I remember it correctly Leica UK Leica then offered to take these stricken M8's back for a £1000 voucher towards a new M9 at £4995

 

Hence some of those folk who took up the offer are now in a double whammy situation as the M9's they probably never wanted but were persuaded to buy are now the ones most likely to be the worst affected, and before you ask. Yes I had two M8's and two M8.2,s and hence lost a small fortune.

 

Anyway my view now is why risk a third time, so although I do already have one M240 and love it I have no desire whatsoever to throw more good money after bad on another M240 unless Leica's offer was virtually too good to be true and lets face it that just is not going to happen, Don:mad:

[Guest]

...However, I have a little less sympathy for a company that positions itself as an elite maker of photographic tools which are priced as such, builds a multi-million dollar new facility, yet makes their problems their customer's problems...

 

...I don't want a M240 at a deal ... my camera is a MM ... and now my trust in it has been "corroded".

 

- Marc

Marc - spot-on with the misdirection of Leica's use of funds (expensive new "campus" rather than more much-needed R&D) and "making their problems their customers problems". Like most people, I expect a high-end camera to work properly and not have unrepairable design faults (which is where more R&D was, and is, needed).

 

I wrote earlier that both my M9-P and my M-Monochrom have had to have their sensors replaced because of de-lamination; that was about 8 and 12 months ago, respectively.The sensors have not been wet-cleaned after replacement. Today I tested the M-Monochrom and it already has a few small de-lamination spots. I'll test the M9-P tomorrow.

 

It's not a question of worrying, as some people have suggested above; it's a matter of "botheration" and having to send the camera away from remote countries for many months. This is simply not acceptable for a camera at this level and price, apart from the fact that a design fault should be the subject of a recall.

Edited December 3, 2014 by not_a_hero

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However, I have a little less sympathy for a company that (...) builds a multi-million dollar new facility (...)

 

While Leica was planning and building its new facility, it was bashed by everyone for being unable to meet demand for the new M camera and the new lenses. One of the main arguments for the new facilities was that the then current ones were overflowing and that Leica needed more room for its production facilities.

 

Building a beautiful factory and HQ costs scarcely more than building an ugly one.

[jaapv]

I still fail to see how more funds for R&D could have avoided this problem....[

Leica bought a cover glass produced for the purpose from the premier glass company in the world.

Marc - spot-on with the misdirection of Leica's use of funds (expensive new "campus" rather than more much-needed R&D) and "making their problems their customers problems". Like most people, I expect a high-end camera to work properly and not have unrepairable design faults (which is where more R&D was, and is, needed).

 

I wrote earlier that both my M9-P and my M-Monochrom have had to have their sensors replaced because of de-lamination; that was about 8 and 12 months ago, respectively.The sensors have not been wet-cleaned after replacement. Today I tested the M-Monochrom and it already has a few small de-lamination spots. I'll test the M9-P tomorrow.

 

It's not a question of worrying, as some people have suggested above; it's a matter of "botheration" and having to send the camera away from remote countries for many months. This is simply not acceptable for a camera at this level and price, apart from the fact that a design fault should be the subject of a recall.

Edited December 3, 2014 by jaapv

[k-hawinkler]

Maybe Leica can also utilize their new facility to properly resolve this problem!

That's my hope.

[pgk]

Any action I take would have to be with the UK Trading Standards Office or UK Courts because my camera was bought in the UK.

I think that you will find that in the UK your contract is with the seller, not Leica, so you will need to seek redress via the retailer first and foremost.

..... all I want is for Leica to admit moral responsibility and accept it is they rather than we customers who should be paying to for put matters right. Red herrings about such as wet cleaning are just that. I.E. to throw us of the scent, and neither am I impressed by hints about favorable upgrade deals!

 

This same tactic used when owners discovered there M8's could not be repaired, and if I remember it correctly Leica UK Leica then offered to take these stricken M8's back for a £1000 voucher towards a new M9 at £4995 ..... unless Leica's offer was virtually too good to be true and lets face it that just is not going to happen, Don:mad:

I suspect that if equipment is out of warranty, and even if the fault is a manufacturing one, you will still be looking at a compromise of some description or other - and most likely it will be in the form of a discount against new replacement - what else are manufacturers likely to do?

 

And FWIW, 2 x M8s and an M8-2 and M9 later and I've yet to have anything worse than a remap and switch repair. I honestly doubt that the troubles that afflict some cameras are likely to affect all despite what the pessimists say.

[Guest]

I still fail to see how more funds for R&D could have avoided this problem....[

Leica bought a cover glass produced for the purpose from the premier glass company in the world.

Yes, but R&D includes extensive testing of design solutions, even from one of the best glass suppliers. While I am not going to try to investigate the technical reasons for de-lamination, or corrosion, someone above suggested that the humidity limitations of the glass was indicated by Schott. If that is the case, clearly a lot more testing of the design was necessary to avoid the present problems. And more R&D would be needed if it is going to be solved now.. Edited December 3, 2014 by not_a_hero

[Guest]

...One of the main arguments for the new facilities was that the then current ones were overflowing and that Leica needed more room for its production facilities.

 

Building a beautiful factory and HQ costs scarcely more than building an ugly one.

For a company like Leica, in a continuing existential technological transition (from mechanics to electronics), a careful allocation of scarce funds is essential. "Building a beautiful factory and HQ" is hugely more expensive in capital costs than expansion into simpler or even rented facilities until the company is technically and financially secure. There are also other solutions...all a lot less capital-hungry than building a beautiful campus. Leica may think they have "style", but obviously they cannot afford what Apple can.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

Leica need to be very aware that this thread is not being fuelled by the usual "Leica bashers" but rather by the concerns of many long term Leica users and aficionados as well as many well respected photographers.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KeithL

[Guest]

I am sure Leica is aware of that. I was asked for advice on where the policy statement should be posted, but my advice, which was elsewhere than being buried in this thread, was not taken. And I am not a Leica basher.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

And I am not a Leica basher.

 

Never occurred to me that you were. My post was not a reaction to yours.

[k-hawinkler]

Here is an open letter to Leica you can sign.

Maybe Google translation is in order.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/355714-offener-brief-die-leica-camera-ag.html

[Paul J]

What's past is prologue. All I care about now is that Leica are doing something about it above and beyond the unacceptable offers they have made so far. Customers are in the dark and it's gaining momentum by the hour.

[andybarton]

If Leica have accepted that there is a manufacturing defect with their sensor, which they have, publicly in this thread (albeit hidden on page 17, or whatever it is), then they really ought to put a statement in the Customer Service area of their website, so that owners who do not frequent the page 17s of threads such as this on the Forum, can more easily be aware that there IS an acknowledged problem and Leica have a proposal to solve that.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest]

Here is an open letter to Leica you can sign.

Maybe Google translation is in order.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/355714-offener-brief-die-leica-camera-ag.html

An elegant and fair letter, which I have signed.

[k-hawinkler]

An elegant and fair letter, which I have signed.

 

Thanks. Agreed, I signed as well.