Confirming the temperature problem.

[pico]

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In the middle of the summer in the south of France, I quite often see the CPU temperature in my Macbook Pro up in the high 70º’s or low 80º’s, if it is doing some processor intensive work, like converting a large batch of DNG’s into 16 bit TIFF’s. [...]

Wilson

 

The issue is the behavior of CMOS, which is not a part of your Mac.

[jdlaing]

Ok, so why didn't CS refer me to QA Dept while I was there from the USA rather than ask me to take about a half an hour to explain to them what was happening and also make note of all my camera settings? Guess I should have pressed the point with Andrea.

 

For sure it is needed to refer the problem to the QA Dept! By the way, what does QA mean? I know QC, just don't know what QA Dept is.

 

Quality Assurance is a team effort where the "team" ensures the product performs within a guideline.

 

Quality Control is an oversight method where an outside third party or an inside inspection entity enforces a standard.

 

The QA method works a lot better in my field of work.

 

I would suspect Leica has the QC method in place.

[jdlaing]

I used the M in the desert earlier this year for several hours well above 105 degrees and did not have any problems.

 

I was not using live view or the EVF.

[JimKasson]

The issue is the behavior of CMOS, which is not a part of your Mac.

 

The processor in the Mac uses complimentary metal-oxide semiconductor field effect transistor technology. So does much of the support circuitry. In fact, CMOS has been the dominant technology in the computer industry, virtually replacing bipolar transistors and n- and p-channel MOSFETs in the seventies.

 

Jim

[pico]

The processor in the Mac uses complimentary metal-oxide semiconductor field effect transistor technology. So does much of the support circuitry. In fact, CMOS has been the dominant technology in the computer industry, virtually replacing bipolar transistors and n- and p-channel MOSFETs in the seventies.

 

Jim

 

But exactly how is the tech employed over the whole architecture? Where is the focus of heat stress, at what periodicity, and what sinks are used that cannot be fit into the M? You know very well that the application to poll the sensor for an image is entirely different, and at the edge of applicable general purpose use. Do I have to continue?

[wlaidlaw]

But exactly how is the tech employed over the whole architecture? Where is the focus of heat stress, at what periodicity, and what sinks are used that cannot be fit into the M? You know very well that the application to poll the sensor for an image is entirely different, and at the edge of applicable general purpose use. Do I have to continue?

 

Pico,

 

I often have my MBP running for hours on end with the CPU temperature over 70ºC, far longer than I would normally have a camera active. Now we don’t know what the temperatures the CMOS sensor is hitting but the whole camera seems to trip off when the ambient temperature is above 40ºC. My suspicion is that Leica has gone for a simplistic approach to temperature control, rather that measuring the individual temperatures on critical components and only tripping when these are exceeded, where my MBP experience points to allowing considerably higher temperatures than 40º.

 

If the sensor is as temperature critical as Leica appear to believe, then maybe they should have incorporated Peltier effect thermo-electric cooling, using the outside top body as a heat sink. This would use some battery but is totally silent. I would much prefer to use some battery than to keep having to reset my camera.

 

Wilson

[masjah]

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Is there any observeable difference in the noise of the image when things hot up?

[JimKasson]

Is there any observeable difference in the noise of the image when things hot up?

 

I did some self-heating noise testing in September, which produced consistent and measurable, but small changes in noise levels.

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 1 | The Last Word

 

Jim

[pico]

[...]If the sensor is as temperature critical as Leica appear to believe, then maybe they should have incorporated Peltier effect thermo-electric cooling [...]

 

To my knowledge, that method would require a great deal of power, likely more than can can put into the M, as well it would require more real estate than is available in the M body and more power than the external grip battery could provide.

 

But who knows? Not me.

[jaapv]

I did some self-heating noise testing in September, which produced consistent and measurable, but small changes in noise levels.

 

Characterizing the Leica M240, part 1 | The Last Word

 

Jim

 

There may have been, but none that I noticed.

[ModernMan]

Ok, so why didn't CS refer me to QA Dept while I was there from the USA rather than ask me to take about a half an hour to explain to them what was happening and also make note of all my camera settings? Guess I should have pressed the point with Andrea.

 

For sure it is needed to refer the problem to the QA Dept! By the way, what does QA mean? I know QC, just don't know what QA Dept is.

The problem originated with (and needs to be addressed by) the design department. QA, QC, CS... gatekeepers all. Who is actually designing these things?

[wlaidlaw]

Peltier effect cooling for sensors is used for cameras modified for Astrophotography - see attached photo of a Canon EOS450D courtesy of sternschnuppen.de. You can see that there are one or two downsides to using Peltier cooling

 

Wilson

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[barjohn]

The problem originated with (and needs to be addressed by) the design department. QA, QC, CS... gatekeepers all. Who is actually designing these things?

 

At this point, feedback to the design engineering team can serve two purposes. First, it can let them know that their design temperature tolerances were too low and close to marginal so that the next design is better. The second purpose would be to design a fix that can be applied retroactively (this can be much more difficult & expensive). If, for example, it is due to the CMOSIS sensor having a temperature problem, it may not be easy to add additional cooling or heat removal for the chip without a redesign of the circuit board. The usual fix for problems like this is to change the firmware to try and improve the power management as that is far less expensive.

 

It is CS's job to log and communicate these issues back to the design team and the quality management team to ensure that the specifications are modified for the future designs and to try and provide the customer with a solution. Sometimes there is no practical solution and it is a rare company that will admit or acknowledge that fact because it would require a recall of all of the production.

[algrove]

Sometimes there is no practical solution and it is a rare company that will admit or acknowledge that fact because it would require a recall of all of the production.

 

As I mention in my post #32 above, I did not admit it or did not want to admit the problem to me when we were all having these issues during the hot European Summer of 2013.

 

If it is too expensive then why should we continue buying very expensive Leica camera bodies that do not work properly under warmish conditions usually with EVF attached. This is a disaster for R lens users who mostly always use EVF's.

 

I just remembered that I also told CS Leica about the dimming problems with the EVF after I got it working again after lock up. Often it would take 2 or 3 start ups after lock up before the EVF would return to normal brightness.

[pico]

Wilson, that is positively Steam-Punk!

 

What is it, really?

[Peter H]

I returned today from a five-week stay in Central/East Africa. The M performed excellently, but for one problem: If the ambient temperature is over 37 degrees Centigrade...........)

 

37 degrees fahrenheit represents a good summer for some of us.

[jaapv]

So wear something under your kilt!

[wlaidlaw]

Wilson, that is positively Steam-Punk!

 

What is it, really?

 

Pico,

 

It really is a Peltier effect cooled DSLR used for ultra low light/long exposure astro photography. See more details of it here

Astrofotografie: EOS 450D and

. With that size of cooling fan, I don’t think you would have to worry about the noise of mirror slap

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

So wear something under your kilt!

 

As most scotsmen would tell you: “There’s nothing worn underneath the kilt. Everything’s in purrrfect working order.”

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[algrove]

That photograph of the Canon got me thinking about a solution to our lock up issues.

 

I guess when going to hot climates I will start carrying a dry ice cooler where I can put one body inside (adequately protected from freezer burn) while using the other and then when lockup occurs with the one camera I can switch to the cooler one and keep alternating back and forth until the shoot is complete.

 

Or until I tire of the situation and rid myself of my M240's unless the next FW completely tackles the problem.