sanyasi Posted October 30, 2013 Share #1 Posted October 30, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have not been a wide angle shooter, but purchased the Leica 3.4 21mm lenses. I use it on my MM and my M. With the M9, I never had problems with moire, but never shot lower than 35mm. With the M, I am getting lots of moire (blue and orange) and architectural details like railings and air conditioning grills are producing lots of moire when I shoot the 21, particularly if the light is bright. I am also getting magenta and red fringing also (on grids of windows on modern buildings) I have actually gotten fairly good at removing a lot of this, but it can take up to an hour per photograph. I am curious: Was this a problem with the M9? If not, I may just put the 21mm permanently on the M9 or use it just with the MM. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Hi sanyasi, Take a look here M240, 21mm Wide Angle, and Moire. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Hannes Lummes Posted October 30, 2013 Share #2 Posted October 30, 2013 Yes it was a problem, even bigger. As long as we have resolution below ca. 50Mpix and no anti alias filters there is going to be moire and false details with nearly all lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanyasi Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted October 30, 2013 Thanks. I assume the tradeoff is that without the filter, the image is sharper or that higher ISO settings are better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted October 30, 2013 Share #4 Posted October 30, 2013 Not to thread-jack, but is there a good, geometrically-correct 21mm lens for the M that doesn't have color shift or chromatic aberration? From what I have been able to tell, the SA is not up to the M sensor, the 21mm Elmarits have distortion, and the 21mm/4.5 Zeiss has no distortion but does have color shift. I have been considering the Super-Elmar, but sinking $3K+ on a lens that shows chromatic aberration on an M is probably not in the cards. My reference for this kind of lens is the Fujinon 14mm (=21mm on APS-C), which has zero distortion and zero issues. On the M, I use a 21-35mm Dual M-Hexanon - which is sharp and has no aberrations, but for architecture, it requires some correction. On the moire, if you cause the lens to diffract, some of that should go away. That was Kodak's advice with the 14n DSLR, which had no AA filter and had moire issues. Dante Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Black Posted October 31, 2013 Share #5 Posted October 31, 2013 The 21/3.4 ASPH is a ridiculously sharp lens with great resolving capabilities; simply put, its resolution capabilities are out performing the M-240's 24 MP sensor. The MM will not show color moire for obvious reasons. If you have moire on the M-240, then the M9 would show it even more so since the M9 / M9-P have a lower sensor resolution. Capture One and Lightroom have provisions for removing (or mitigating) moire. The results are mixed in my experience, but they are effective to varying degrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirekti Posted October 31, 2013 Share #6 Posted October 31, 2013 Yes it was a problem, even bigger. As long as we have resolution below ca. 50Mpix and no anti alias filters there is going to be moire and false details with nearly all lenses. But once we get rid of the moire with 50 Mpix + sensor we will all have to use a tripod, otherwise even a slightly camera shake will be noticable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 31, 2013 Share #7 Posted October 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have the SEM21 and the M240 and I have no problems whatsoever with this combination. Suggest you have Leica look at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted October 31, 2013 Share #8 Posted October 31, 2013 Every high quality lens I've ever mounted on a digital camera with no AA filter has been capable of producing moire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted October 31, 2013 Share #9 Posted October 31, 2013 Not to thread-jack, but is there a good, geometrically-correct 21mm lens for the M that doesn't have color shift or chromatic aberration? From what I have been able to tell, the SA is not up to the M sensor, the 21mm Elmarits have distortion, and the 21mm/4.5 Zeiss has no distortion but does have color shift. I have been considering the Super-Elmar, but sinking $3K+ on a lens that shows chromatic aberration on an M is probably not in the cards. My reference for this kind of lens is the Fujinon 14mm (=21mm on APS-C), which has zero distortion and zero issues. On the M, I use a 21-35mm Dual M-Hexanon - which is sharp and has no aberrations, but for architecture, it requires some correction. ... In that case why don't you acquire a Fujinon to M adaptor, use your 14 mm on your M and crop to 21 mm field of view in post-processing? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanyasi Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share #10 Posted October 31, 2013 The 21/3.4 ASPH is a ridiculously sharp lens with great resolving capabilities; simply put, its resolution capabilities are out performing the M-240's 24 MP sensor. The MM will not show color moire for obvious reasons. If you have moire on the M-240, then the M9 would show it even more so since the M9 / M9-P have a lower sensor resolution. Capture One and Lightroom have provisions for removing (or mitigating) moire. The results are mixed in my experience, but they are effective to varying degrees. I have taken to approaches to eliminating moire and fringing. The first is to desaturate in Photoshop. Magenta blue line running along a black steel column with white sky. Given that combination, it works. The same for air conditioning grills that black and white. I have also used Gaussian blur and the clone stamp when the moire appeared on frosted glass. That was quite effective. For the orange and blue moire, I open a tiff version of the file in Lightroom and use the moire brush (why there isn't a similar brush in Photoshop, I don't know). I found the results in LR mixed. After applying the brush, it was necessary to further desaturate the area because the orange and blue left a bit of a gold cast on the otherwise black object. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanyasi Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted October 31, 2013 I have the SEM21 and the M240 and I have no problems whatsoever with this combination. Suggest you have Leica look at it. This has happened on three or four photos in the last couple of weeks, so I don't think it is a global issue. Before sending the camera to Leica, I will need to see a lot more moire, but thanks for the suggestion. I should say that I was applying a very high contrast Nik software filter to most of these photographs, which may be part of the problem because the Moire wasn't readily apparent until I first applied a curve and then the filter. In all cases where moire has appeared, I was shooting architectural photos of modern buildings with "grid" steel and glass details or brick patterns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 31, 2013 Share #12 Posted October 31, 2013 Not to thread-jack, but is there a good, geometrically-correct 21mm lens for the M that doesn't have color shift or chromatic aberration? From what I have been able to tell, the SA is not up to the M sensor, the 21mm Elmarits have distortion, and the 21mm/4.5 Zeiss has no distortion but does have color shift. I have been considering the Super-Elmar, but sinking $3K+ on a lens that shows chromatic aberration on an M is probably not in the cards. My reference for this kind of lens is the Fujinon 14mm (=21mm on APS-C), which has zero distortion and zero issues. On the M, I use a 21-35mm Dual M-Hexanon - which is sharp and has no aberrations, but for architecture, it requires some correction. On the moire, if you cause the lens to diffract, some of that should go away. That was Kodak's advice with the 14n DSLR, which had no AA filter and had moire issues. Dante Do you have to go as wide as 21mm? If you can manage with say 25mm, I can recommend the Zeiss 25/2.8 ZM Biogon. I have been using this for yacht interiors and it is geometrically very correct. On the M240 it suffered red edges but the recent FW update has improved this a quite a bit if not 100% cured. I have not noticed any serious issues with colour shift. I cannot post any images with the FW update, as it has gone off to Malcolm Taylor to have the mount coded. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted October 31, 2013 Share #13 Posted October 31, 2013 I haven't had any problems with moire with the 21 SEM on the M but there is a little bit of red edge that is removable in PP, about the same as my Elmarit 24 Asph. The only lens that ever gave me a ton of moire (and it was on the M9) was the Summicron 50, latest version (non-Asph). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted October 31, 2013 Share #14 Posted October 31, 2013 In that case why don't you acquire a Fujinon to M adaptor' date=' use your 14 mm on your M and crop to 21 mm field of view in post-processing? Pete.[/quote'] Funny, since that ends up being the same as using on the X-Pro... I would love to physically adapt it to the M just to see how it worked as a 14, but the lens is focus and aperture by wire. Plus the XF register is 10mm shorter than Leica... Maybe it will be a Super Elmar one of these days. Does the built in profile kill CA at least in the jpgs? I think the rest should be doable in LR. Dante Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted October 31, 2013 Share #15 Posted October 31, 2013 ... but the lens is focus and aperture by wire. Plus the XF register is 10mm shorter than Leica... Oh okay scratch that idea then. I'm not familiar with this lens. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted April 6, 2014 Share #16 Posted April 6, 2014 Do you have to go as wide as 21mm? If you can manage with say 25mm, I can recommend the Zeiss 25/2.8 ZM Biogon. I have been using this for yacht interiors and it is geometrically very correct. On the M240 it suffered red edges but the recent FW update has improved this a quite a bit if not 100% cured. I have not noticed any serious issues with colour shift. I cannot post any images with the FW update, as it has gone off to Malcolm Taylor to have the mount coded. Wilson Wilson, I am generally shooting architectural subjects at fairly close range (otherwise there would be obstructions), so 21mm (or 50mm on 6x9) has been it. Unfortunately. 18mm and shorter is just a hair too short (and that's when vingetting, distortion, and tilted horizons get a bit out of control). I am still actually looking hard at the 21/4,5 Zeiss (since the end product is almost always b/w anyway), but it's still a question of how much corner fixing is necessary on the rare color occasion (some for Leica; a lot for Zeiss; but a $2K price difference can justify a hell of a lot of post-processing! I suppose I could just use my 21-35 for color work. Dante Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 6, 2014 Share #17 Posted April 6, 2014 Dante, I sold my Zeiss 21/2.8 to a friend a long time ago, when I got a WATE, also now gone. I cannot therefore comment on red corners. I would be surprised if the 21/2.8 Elmarit was fully corrected and the Zeiss was not if coded the same. If this was the case, it could only be because the Zeiss has a significantly shorter exit pupil to sensor distance than the Leica. Now I know that is the case with the WATE because it is a retrofocal design but looking at element diagrams for the Elmarit and Biogon, there seems not to be a huge difference in the position of the exit pupil. I also understand that a further FW update is now actually overdue, which will probably be a further improvement in red edge correction for wide lenses. I would not be surprised if the FW update came out with other announcements on the 24th of this month. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted April 7, 2014 Share #18 Posted April 7, 2014 I've not played with it enough to be able to comment on the moire issues - but I'm enjoying the R 28 PC for architecture. Worth considering - and the shift does allow for less cropping than you might end up having to do with the 21 if you're needing to get verticals straight... Otherwise I really like the 18mm Zeiss on the M 240 -- and I've not noticed major issues with colour shift or distortion - but again, I've not done much with this of late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdk Posted April 7, 2014 Share #19 Posted April 7, 2014 Try stopping down to f/11-f/13 when shooting moire inducing subjects. Diffraction will start to blur the image sightly and should reduce moire at the expense of some fine detail. Then add a bit more post-process sharpening (preferably deconvolution type such as Smart Sharpen in Photoshop, 100% detail setting in Lightroom, or Topaz In Focus PS plugin) to recover the appearance of details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 7, 2014 Share #20 Posted April 7, 2014 The Moiré Tool (on the details tab) of the latest version of Capture One Pro (7.2.1), works well enough, that moiré has now become a non-issue for me. You can use it globally or on a adjustment brush. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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