What do you want in the next digital M?

[Jeff S]

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….As LCT states above, I'm unlikely to get lug failures, colour balance issues, coffee stained LCD, or lock-ups….

 

I don't think lct mentioned color balance issues. I don't see how the M60 would offer less challenges than the M240 with respect to color balance when shooting DNG, which we both do. The M240 does offer more color control options (via color profiles or menu selection), but these can be eliminated (menu set on fixed temp or auto), in which case color balance can be left to PP. [i'm also not sure how FW updates will relate to the M60….one addressed some early M240 color issues.]

 

Jeff

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[IkarusJohn]

I don't think lct mentioned color balance issues. I don't see how the M60 would offer less challenges than the M240 with respect to color balance when shooting DNG, which we both do.

 

There were pages and pages of complaint about colour balance early in the M(240) thread - can I pass on your oft repeated advice to use the search function?

 

Sure, LCT didn't mention colour balance. He was also being tongue in cheek referring to the M60. It wasn't my intention to put words into his mouth - what would be the point? My point, which you ignore, is that there was a lot of complaint about colour balance which is only relevant if JPGs mean anything to you - they don't for either of us. White balance is just the first part of post processing.

 

Sorry to confuse you. It is something which seems to have bothered M(240) users a lot. I have asked Leica to fix white balance at 5500K in the firmware. It has been passed on to the relevant person (whoever that might be). I'm not actually sure that the firmware will ever be updated, unless a production version of the M60 is released (in which case, I will have blown a huge amount of money unnecessarily - such is life, I guess).

[Exodies]

I'd like to see some security features in the next M. For example, disable the camera in the wrong hands (eg it has to be in rfid range of its electronic remote shutter switch, PIN number after power on).

[Jeff S]

There were pages and pages of complaint about colour balance early in the M(240) thread - can I pass on your oft repeated advice to use the search function?

 

Sure, LCT didn't mention colour balance. He was also being tongue in cheek referring to the M60. It wasn't my intention to put words into his mouth - what would be the point? My point, which you ignore, is that there was a lot of complaint about colour balance which is only relevant if JPGs mean anything to you - they don't for either of us. White balance is just the first part of post processing.

 

Sorry to confuse you. It is something which seems to have bothered M(240) users a lot. I have asked Leica to fix white balance at 5500K in the firmware. It has been passed on to the relevant person (whoever that might be). I'm not actually sure that the firmware will ever be updated, unless a production version of the M60 is released (in which case, I will have blown a huge amount of money unnecessarily - such is life, I guess).

 

You're too funny.

 

I don't need to search about info on a camera that I own and well understand. Many of the early color complaints were addressed via FW update, as already noted. The rest are easily addressed, either in-camera (e.g., using profiles, WB card, or menu settings) or via PP. It wasn't about JPEG for most users.

 

The complaints about color issues with the M240 were far less than the early complaints about color on the M9. But as an M9 owner, you surely already know that. If not, use the search box.

 

Oh, and btw, I can set 5500 K, or any other temp, on the M240 and never touch the setting again if I so choose. And yet, you describe the color balance issues on the M60 as less problematic than with the M240 even though you can't just as easily do that yourself, but instead need to rely on Leica. Too funny.

 

Jeff

[Mornnb]

 

You asked why the M(240) isn't for me - I loathe the clutter and distraction which modern electronics often bring, and I prefer the purity of the M60. There are no menus for me to get wrong, no buttons for me to press by mistake - it only takes DNG files in a way that I am used to. As LCT states above, I'm unlikely to get lug failures, colour balance issues, coffee stained LCD, or lock-ups (I'll keep you posted on that one), or more critically, I'm not going to take a video or a picture with EC, white balance or any other setting wrong by mistake (I do this often with the T).

 

Cheers

John

 

Well for me the M240 is the perfect Leica. I'm young I've grown up shooting digital. I've been trained by modern cameras to take the shot and then verify focus/composition and exposure on the LCD to ensure I walk away with a shot as good as I can get it.

For me the M240 has all the features I consider basic and essential in a digital camera. A high res LCD, live view, focus peaking etc. All the important camera functions are a single button away. And has few or no superfluous or rarely used features. (except for video, a feature that defiles an otherwise perfect device...). To me the M240 is the body which only has what I need and doesn't have distractions.

Have you ever tried the Sony A7? The camera even has its own App Store with various camera apps you can purchase. I don't need or want all that.

 

Shouldn't we just be happy that Leica makes a camera for both of our needs?

[IkarusJohn]

Well for me the M240 is the perfect Leica. I'm young I've grown up shooting digital. I've been trained by modern cameras to take the shot and then verify focus/composition and exposure on the LCD to ensure I walk away with a shot as good as I can get it.

For me the M240 has all the features I consider basic and essential in a digital camera. A high res LCD, live view, focus peaking etc. All the important camera functions are a single button away. And has few or no superfluous or rarely used features. (except for video, a feature that defiles an otherwise perfect device...). To me the M240 is the body which only has what I need and doesn't have distractions.

Have you ever tried the Sony A7? The camera even has its own App Store with various camera apps you can purchase. I don't need or want all that.

 

Shouldn't we just be happy that Leica makes a camera for both of our needs?

 

Of course. Why would I think you should be unhappy? That would be very strange.

 

I did own an A7r, and sold it - shutter slap, poor with Leica wides and complication were the main problems (though it was more intuitive than the Nex-5n I had). The output from my M9 was, frankly, better than from the A7, and I was ultimately disappointed with focus peaking. I used it with my Nikon lenses as well, and not surprisingly the output was better from my D800E.

 

There's no reason for you not to enjoy your M(240) just because it doesn't work for me. It's not that the camera doesn't do what it set out to do, I just think the whole concept is flawed for Leica as its flagship M camera. I don't even mind all the electronic stuff - I have it in my Leica T. I just don't think it should be in this M camera, or rather if it is in this M camera, then it's not for me.

 

A good design is really only as good as its weakest link. The weakest link of the M(240) is not either the sensor or the rangefinder ...

 

Cheers

John

[menos I M6]

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Is this the "M60 is just a M240 thread" or is this the "What do you want in the next digital M? thread" ?

 

I think it's a sure sign that all wishes have been expressed. I am sure R&D + prototyping for the next M are in full swing by now so any further bickering is entirely non constructive - especially bickering about camera A is just a camera B.

 

Let's see if Leica marketing has picked up some suggestions and see if we get:

 

A: a digital M with better life view, a new 50MP sensor, more direct control buttons on the shell, a bigger screen on the back, autofocus, WiFi, bluetooth and GPS, mobile OS app and cloud picture space

 

B: a digital M with moderate improvements of the M10's shortcomings, same functions, same concept, just raise in numbers here and there.

 

C: a digital M back to the roots of traditional M cameras with less clutter, a less space consuming screen (or even without one)

 

 

I am betting it surely will be B as much as I want C.

 

Oh and one word: the M60 is just a mighty fine camera - would it be a black paint on brass affair with strap-lugs, I surely would have one of those myself and cross the [x] "camera for the next decade" item.

I wonder why Leica would not have issued it this way: all traditional, maybe even so far as looking like a M3, issued with a E43 50mm Summilux ASPH, all the way clad in black lacquer and coarse, historically correct Vulcanite (heck, even the real deal would have been an option for a run of a few hundred at the asking price).

I am sure, collectors would have toppled over their feet to get an order fixed and prices on the market for the kit would have soared while none would have been found for sale in shops as is with the modern interpretation of the M60 as it is.

 

But then again, Leica's approach is likely the very reason why the company does well, while a very, very similar company is now very sadly gone for good with their guts spilled at auction :-(

 

When I heard the final news about Rollei, I honestly almost cried - really hit me in the gut.

[Jeff S]

 

Is this the "M60 is just a M240 thread" or is this the "What do you want in the next digital M? thread" ?

 

[snip]

 

But then again, Leica's approach is likely the very reason why the company does well, while a very, very similar company is now very sadly gone for good with their guts spilled at auction :-(

 

When I heard the final news about Rollei, I honestly almost cried - really hit me in the gut.

 

There's a Rollei thread for discussion.

 

Jeff

[pico]

[...] I've grown up shooting digital.

 

Cross species transmitted virus!

.

[Mornnb]

Is this the "M60 is just a M240 thread" or is this the "What do you want in the next digital M? thread" ?

 

I think it's a sure sign that all wishes have been expressed. I am sure R&D + prototyping for the next M are in full swing by now so any further bickering is entirely non constructive - especially bickering about camera A is just a camera B.

 

Let's see if Leica marketing has picked up some suggestions and see if we get:

 

A: a digital M with better life view, a new 50MP sensor, more direct control buttons on the shell, a bigger screen on the back, autofocus, WiFi, bluetooth and GPS, mobile OS app and cloud picture space

 

 

B: a digital M with moderate improvements of the M10's shortcomings, same functions, same concept, just raise in numbers here and there.

 

C: a digital M back to the roots of traditional M cameras with less clutter, a less space consuming screen (or even without one)

 

 

A. would be an awful option, a bunch of bloatware that doesn't assist a photographer.

I'd be happy with a M360, a Leica M with a 36MP sensor and an improved EVF. The Leica M240 already has got the concept right, and as sensor and EVF technology has improved since it was out it's time for an upgrade.

 

 

 

Oh and one word: the M60 is just a mighty fine camera - would it be a black paint on brass affair with strap-lugs, I surely would have one of those myself and cross the [x] "camera for the next decade" item.

I wonder why Leica would not have issued it this way: all traditional, maybe even so far as looking like a M3, issued with a E43 50mm Summilux ASPH, all the way clad in black lacquer and coarse, historically correct Vulcanite (heck, even the real deal would have been an option for a run of a few hundred at the asking price).

I am sure, collectors would have toppled over their feet to get an order fixed and prices on the market for the kit would have soared while none would have been found for sale in shops as is with the modern interpretation of the M60 as it is.

 

 

I think something like the M60 should be a replacement for the M9/M-E line. It should be cheaper than the 'M11' and should provide a more traditional film like experience for people like IkarusJohn.

[lct]

The next M-E will be a rebadged M240 i suspect but i may be wrong.

[Exodies]

I suspect there is no one like IkarusJohn.

[Joshua Lowe]

Maybe they should split the line. A whiz-bang M with live view, EVF, etc etc and a digital equivalent of the M-A that is rangefinder only, thinner and lighter, etc.

[cirke]

Maybe they should split the line. A whiz-bang M with live view, EVF, etc etc and a digital equivalent of the M-A that is rangefinder only, thinner and lighter, etc.

I agree totally

[IkarusJohn]

I think there's enough breadth in the M line to do exactly that, and keep everyone happy.

[CheshireCat]

I think there's enough breadth in the M line to do exactly that, and keep everyone happy.

 

There is enough breadth but what about enough customers ?

Seems the M60 is still available for sale, and they made 600 of them (correct me if I am wrong).

[Mornnb]

There is enough breadth but what about enough customers ?

Seems the M60 is still available for sale, and they made 600 of them (correct me if I am wrong).

 

Might have something to do with the price of entry, rather than a problem with the concept. Most people can't justify paying more for the removal of an LCD.

[cirke]

diglloyd: Emerging Features that Are Essential: Make the Camera Work for YOU

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LocalHero1953]

Strange: only one item on there that helps you take a good photograph when you might otherwise not: sensor stabilisation. I suspect Digiloyd and I have different agendas.

[cirke]

Strange: only one item on there that helps you take a good photograph when you might otherwise not: sensor stabilisation. I suspect Digiloyd and I have different agendas.

it's about gear not talent , someone with talent can make perfect photos with an iphone

for the gear I agree 100% with Digiloyd