Guest malland Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1161 Posted October 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...Basically a replacement or direct competitor to the M.Yes, for the part of the market that is not interested in the rangefinder and the uniqueness of the M-Monochrom image quality and the M9 color rendition. WIth respect to the latter it's the M240 that is the low-hanging fruit imho. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 20, 2013 Posted October 20, 2013 Hi Guest malland, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1162 Posted October 20, 2013 I will be perfectly happy if the A7r gives good results with my R lenses. Not me. I have the M240 for the R lenses and it might not be the 36MP I dream of, but I sure am not going to jump on the A7R for just the advantage of a few extra MPs for only my R lenses. The A7R is going to have to do more than be an excellent R solution, for me anyway. It needs to work with all of my M lenses including wides, especially wides, because, I shoot them so much of the time. And, it is going to have to be more than an R solution for me because, the roadmap of lenses Sony has announced to be released over the next 2 years is so incredibly unexciting as to be boring. The Full Frame E-mount Lens roadmap: 15 lenses will be launched until late 2015. | sonyalpharumors Anybody else as unexcited about these A7R Zeiss snoozers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1163 Posted October 20, 2013 Wow I got tired just reading all that you had to say My friend you want to shoot with a Sony be my guest . Just don't tell me that it is a leica replacement. It is a total different game they got going on Well my apologies for ya know, having a discussion, on a forum of all places. User name noted, it won't happen again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1164 Posted October 20, 2013 ...Most importantly, looking at the extraordinary amount of traffic the Sony A7/A7R has generated on this forum in the past few days, Leica needs to pay attention to what many of their customers want, and then supply the demand which the M240 has clearly not filled for many. An M (type360) with better EVF capability, electronic & firmware stability, and a better pricepoint (acepting the latter is unlikely unless they produce a variant model without an OVF, perhaps an E (type 360). Surely Leica could work with a substantial electronics company (such a Panasonic) to get the EVF electronics right... Leica does have to pay attention to what many of its customers want, but that is not enough: Leica needs to know what the bulk of it's customers want and make sure not to offer what Leica only thinks the customer wants, which may give a mistaken view of the market — when Leica produced the M5 they thought they were giving the market what it wanted, and it turned out that Leica was wrong (the market wanted an M3-shape and M3-size type camera) and Leica almost went bankrupt when the M5 didn't sell well. And, as Steve Jobs, used to say: it's not enough to give the market what it wants because the market knows only what it has seen before but has no idea of new possibilities. But here we're talking about another level of innovation; and we need to keep in mind that Leica also has to keep to what is possibility in the light of it's financial capability in terms of R&D and product development. There is also the absurd "Made in Germany" constraint to cost reduction, which is largely self-inflicted and self-induced from Leica's marketing strategy. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1165 Posted October 20, 2013 Anybody else as unexcited about these A7R Zeiss snoozers? On the contrary. If they can pull a 75 85 ish f/2.8 then I'm set. Assuming the IQ is close enough to the M lenses that when added to the sensor and useability of the body the net package is 'better' for me. I'm not in the "it's a lux shoot it wide open all the time" camp. That appears artificial to me, letting the gear determine your image / look / intent. I've noticed with the increase Mp of the M240, I'm down a stop or so aperture compared to the M9. Only portraits at over 2m with the lux do I get anywhere close to f/1.4. Bearing this in mind I even am considering the 50 cron (non apo). So f/2.8 on smallish Zeiss glass is fine for me. Lighter, AF off centre etc. Add to that a universal zoom for 'less serious' holidays snaps, a tele zoom for compressing long landscapes and my kit, just as it did from cannon to Leica, is getting smaller, lighter AGAIN - but with bleeding edge IQ. I'm not at all interested in M WA performance, I do appreciate others are however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1166 Posted October 20, 2013 Wow I got tired just reading all that you had to say Then, don't read it if, it tires you so. Maybe, you could break it down into sections. Just read a little at a time. Or, print the long posts onto flash cards and review them as you feel you have the energy. Anyway, what I mean is that we all have our own views on things and who's to say what is right and what is an illusion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1167 Posted October 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) But dwbell, most of the zooms are about f4. The primes are not so fast either, for primes. And, I think it would be a stretch to think these kit like lenses from Sony-Zeiss are going to compare to Zeiss or M lens primes. It just seems such a bore. Why would I shoot these snoozers when I can mount (on the camera I mean) a M lens or an R lens on the M240. I'm starting to think I'll just stick to the RX1... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1168 Posted October 20, 2013 ...and then you'll read on another thread here that Ron Scheffler, who is completely thorough, capable and credible as a tester, has tried a dozen or so Leica and Zeiss M-mount lenses on the A7 and found major image quality issues. And you'll wonder whether to get the A7R after all. Ah, the problems of being an early adopter. On another issue: there are now 6 or 7 threads here on the two new Sony cameras, and it's difficult for those interested to follow the discussion. In the past the moderators insisted that there be only one thread, on the X100 for example. I wish all these threads had been merged into one, as Borge wisely requested at the outset. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1169 Posted October 20, 2013 There was a three-lens-revolver for Leica M. It is dear to collectors today. Historians know better, but it either took LTM lenses or the M lenses had to be modified. Couldn't such a thing be built for 3 fast M lenses to go on the new Sony? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1170 Posted October 20, 2013 ...I'm starting to think I'll just stick to the RX1...Reason strikes again. Very Kantian: we're back to the critique of pure reason. In other words, Ron Scheffler's credibility has pricked the bubble of speculation. I just wish we would have only one thread on the A7/A7R speculations, rather the seven that we now have. —Mitch/Paris Tristes Tropiques [WIP] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1171 Posted October 20, 2013 Anybody else as unexcited about these A7R Zeiss snoozers? Yes. The line up seems so middle of the road and so uninspired. Like a bunch of salesmen decided on the line up. It's the first sony ff mirrorless system! At least have one lens that people could dream that it was going to be legendary. Just one impractical lens that makes you dream of pictures that no other system could make. It doesn't have to true even, but just a lens that sparks the imagination. With it's lens line up the system gives off a vibe of travelling executive, or father's expensive kids-camera. It seems like a system for people more excited about camera bodies than about lenses. But I guess many people would like to use the camera with their own lenses. If it's a capable body for exciting legacy lenses remains to be seen though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1172 Posted October 20, 2013 Not me. I have the M240 for the R lenses and it might not be the 36MP I dream of, but I sure am not going to jump on the A7R for just the advantage of a few extra MPs for only my R lenses. The A7R is going to have to do more than be an excellent R solution, for me anyway. It needs to work with all of my M lenses including wides, especially wides, because, I shoot them so much of the time. Well in that we differ, i love my R glass and can't wait to have a solution, good EVF with adequate refresh rate and beginning to have a decent resolution camera. summicron 180mm, apo-macro, apo-telyts, summiluxes etc are too wonderful to stay in a cabinet or be used in so so conditions. Next years will be gratifying i think, technology is moving again a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1173 Posted October 20, 2013 But dwbell, most of the zooms are about f4. The primes are not so fast either, for primes. And, I think it would be a stretch to think these kit like lenses from Sony-Zeiss are going to compare to Zeiss or M lens primes. It just seems such a bore. Why would I shoot these snoozers when I can mount (on the camera I mean) a M lens or an R lens on the M240. I'm starting to think I'll just stick to the RX1... Rick, the Cyclades gallery I shot was entirely done with the 3 f/4 canon L zooms. Those three together are lighter than the 2 f/2.8 lenses combined. Were you thinking "hmmm, nice, but I really wish there was a paper thin DoF with the background so blurred as to be unrecognisable?" So general purpose F/4 zooms, no problem at all. As for the primes I do agree. They won't be M's. In fact my own personal biggest "uh-oh" is the bokeh on the 55. I don't like 'swirly' 'jittery' bokeh with 'character' - I Locke it to gracefully recede and not call attention to itself. The 55 looks like some Leica glass I don't like. This alone could kill it for me. I hang out at 50mm a great deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1174 Posted October 20, 2013 biglou, Those R lenses you have sound like they will work well with the A7R. You got it made if, that is all you want to do... which is a lot. But, that won't cut it for me (I'm pretty sure) for my small collection of R lenses. I think my M240 will be fine for my R lenses (but I would love to try the extra MP). You have an M240? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1175 Posted October 20, 2013 Rick, yes, i tried the M240 and liked the files. With a better evf (i tried it too) i would have bought it without any doubt. Was also unlucky with the sample i had, live view that would turn of, by itself, after a few seconds. Now i ordered the A7r, will see, and hopefully Leica will address the 240 little quirks and allow for a good evf in its next iteration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuc Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1176 Posted October 20, 2013 100-Prozent-Ausschnitt | heise online Terrific! Good bye Leica M camera, good bye Leica M lenses. Sony + Zeiss is the future! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1177 Posted October 20, 2013 Wake up call: http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 Muahahahahahahahaha.... That's not the A7R and not sure which adapters. My understanding is that the adapter is a critical part if the IQ chain. But I've never used even one adapter, so I've gone for the best for my back to back testing next month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1178 Posted October 20, 2013 Rick, the Cyclades gallery I shot was entirely done with the 3 f/4 canon L zooms. Those three together are lighter than the 2 f/2.8 lenses combined. Were you thinking "hmmm, nice, but I really wish there was a paper thin DoF with the background so blurred as to be unrecognisable?" So general purpose F/4 zooms, no problem at all. Some of the Canon zooms are created more equal than others. The Canon 24-105/f4.0, for example, I shot on the 5DII and I had to return it. The 24-70/2.8 was amazing. Nothing in the Sony-Zeiss roadmap hits me like that 24-70/2.8. So, a general purpose f/4 zooms are a problem if, they are just a kit-like lens. As for the primes I do agree. They won't be M's. In fact my own personal biggest "uh-oh" is the bokeh on the 55. I don't like 'swirly' 'jittery' bokeh with 'character' - I Locke it to gracefully recede and not call attention to itself. The 55 looks like some Leica glass I don't like. This alone could kill it for me. I hang out at 50mm a great deal. I know what you mean about edgy bokeh... I have a personal problem with my 35/Lux FLE. Great lens, best in class maybe, but the bokeh sucks. I reported that when it came out. I dropped it because, the lens seems to part of the Leica love fest. Anyway, I agree, Sony-Zeiss is going to have to come up with some "magic" primes if, they want to lure the Leica lens crowd over to the other side. I just don't see a lens that I want in that Sony roadmap. I mean specifically, I don't see a Canon 24-70/2.8. I miss that lens. So does Linda. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1179 Posted October 20, 2013 100-Prozent-Ausschnitt | heise online Terrific! Good bye Leica M camera, good bye Leica M lenses. Sony + Zeiss is the future! Very nice. I'd be hesitant to jump to your ultimate conclusion until i've tested both side by side. Again, for me it needs; (sticking to one lens at a time) 1) M + 35cron vs A7r + ZF 35 2) M + 35cron vs A7r + 35cron 3) Usability of each system in y typical shooting conditions.. Then the same for 50mm, 75 and 135. It's not a decision I feel I can make NOW. I'm guessing it'll take at least 6months. During which, ironically, my bag will be heavier than my basic canon kit......go figure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1180 Posted October 20, 2013 I mean specifically, I don't see a Canon 24-70/2.8. I miss that lens. So does Linda. Ok, yes, right. If it comes out more 18-55EFS than it does 24-70 2.8 then sure, we have a problem. We'll see. Again though, if I may, did you look at 'some' of my gallery and think "bleh, I hate the 24-105L!" I would hope (and guess) not? Also, and this'll grate, of all the hold up and show photographers that say even the Leica blog showcases, how many are crisp, edge to edge focused, full DR smooth tonal transitions etc? Almost none in the M camp. Quite the opposite. Blurry, emotional, crushed blacks, gritty, earthy etc. Leica S seems different,covert polished, studio, tonal dexterity etc. always puzzles me that the M crowd talk "S" but shoot "TriX", if you see what I mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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