almoore Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3481 Posted December 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Am I the only one that finds the duration (rather than the noise) of the shutter action offputting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Hi almoore, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
almoore Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3482 Posted December 10, 2013 There are rules and there are "rules". The needless authoritarian stance that I dragged the moderator in on was about the "rules" I'm sure we'll all sleep more soundly with the reassuring knowledge that the "rules" have been enforced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3483 Posted December 10, 2013 Am I the only one that finds the duration (rather than the noise) of the shutter action offputting? The KER-klunnnnnk is offputting. See, we're in agreement! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3484 Posted December 10, 2013 The KER-klunnnnnk is offputting. See, we're in agreement! Let world peace and harmony reign... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3485 Posted December 10, 2013 A-men. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJDrew Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3486 Posted December 10, 2013 I am having all sorts of problems with the A7R. Rick. Be assured that your focus problems are a matter of practice. Having used a NEX-7 extensively, the transition to A7r was smooth - but I had the same problems when I first used NEX. You learn it. Also be assured that large MP cameras, when you pixel peep, amplify camera shake. The same amount of blur with an M9 and an A7r will look almost twice as bad with an A7r. Also, at very high MP, viewed at 100%, DoF is very very shallow. The area that appears sharp at 100% on a 36MP file is significantly more shallow than the same for an 18MP camera. View your photos at 50%, and it'll be far more reasonable to assess focus. As for color shifts with Leica lenses, you will need to download and use the Adobe Flat Field plugin. What you do is import your files as DNG, make neutral calibration images with your lenses at various apertures, and the plugin foxes the color problems. The M240 and M9 has similar problems (very bad on the M240) - but uses in-camera software to fix the problem. My Summilux is fantastic on this camera - so are you peeping the corners at wide apertures? What makes you feel sad about its performance? Is it perhaps the processing? As for color - this is what many experts (even Lloyd Chambers) is saying is so amazing about this camera. "Double pump Mag" - This is a matter of practice. It feels uncomfortable and cumbersome until your fingers know exactly where everything is by intuition. Kind of like finding the aperture ring on a new lens. It's easy to have the camera button layout set up to make manual focusing and confirmation a simple affair. "The shutter release is crappy." Cannot address your personal feelings and complaints, which are valid - but try this trick. Assign the AF/MF button to focus magnify. This allows your to half-press the shutter, magnify and release the shutter without cancelling the enlarged view. It really gets fast, and for shallow Dof applications - you really can achieve a better hit rate than focus/recompose/compensate with a rangefinder. Time will cure most ills with this camera - but it will take more work in LightROOM to fully realize the camera's potential. This can be seen as a drawback. Try to keep an open mind and clear away that initial "this is new and I don't like it" frustration. If you want more info on Adobe Flat field, please feel free to contact me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3487 Posted December 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Am I the only one that finds the duration (rather than the noise) of the shutter action offputting? That was my reaction as well for the first few times I fired the shutter. Long and loud, as if it did everything twice. Pretty weird and annoying! Then I switched lenses, shot a bunch of images, and the shutter sound and duration seems to have changed for the better, much better indeed. Now I get a reassuring, short and not so loud kerchunk! Not bad at all, really. I have no idea what changed but something did and it wasn't my hearing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3488 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm going to wade out here, hip deep, into the "my 36mp images seem blurry" stream. the A7 has an Electronic Front Curtain Shutter. the higher mp A7R does not. The lack of EFCS is going to be a problem handheld unless your shutter speeds are set WAY higher than you could hold them with a film M. A heavy double action shutter (kerrrr-klunnnnnnk,,kerrrr-klunnnnnnk) all of those MP, slower shutter speeds, and NO EFCS will lead to blurry pictures, especially at an unrealistic 100%, but probably earlier than that. This is a pretty basic, but well written explanation. Electronic Front Curtain Shutters Here's a second, more complicated, but well written explanation. http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov12/dw-SonyNEX5N.html If you have an A7 (or NEX 6 or 7) you can turn your EFCS off and experience the kerrrr-klunnnnnnk..kerrrr-klunnnnnnk for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3489 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm going to wade out here, hip deep, into the "my 36mp images seem blurry" stream. the A7 has an Electronic Front Curtain Shutter. the higher mp A7R does not. The lack of EFCS is going to be a problem handheld unless your shutter speeds are set WAY higher than you could hold them with a film M. A heavy action shutter (kerrrr-klunnnnnnk) all of those MP, slower shutter speeds, and NO EFCS will lead to blurry pictures, especially at an unrealistic 100%, but probably earlier than that. This is a pretty basic, but well written explanation. Electronic Front Curtain Shutters A second, more complicated, but well written explanation.Notes on the potential vibration problems observed with two mirrorless digital cameras if used for photomicroscopy (Sony NEX-5N and Panasonic GF2),<br> and the value of an electronic first curtain shutter (EFCS EFSC) option. If you have an A7 (or NEX 6 or 7) you can turn your EFCS off and experience the kerrrr-klunnnnnnk for yourself. I know the technicalities, and you're not wrong on them. However, I've found user ability, mostly ergonomics to be a much higher contributing factor with regards hand holdable minimum shutter speeds. I had high hopes for my M9, Leica fans going on about "mirror slap" and what have you. The ergonomics of the body however meant I can still hand hold my 5DII at lower speeds than my M bodies, even with the evil mirror slap that so curses DSLR's and blah blah. At 35mm on the A7R I can get 100% keepers at 100% viewing magnification (peeping) at 1/125. On my M9 it's 1/60, M240 is somewhere in between. 5DII is 1/50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christer Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3490 Posted December 10, 2013 ……….. Also be assured that large MP cameras, when you pixel peep, amplify camera shake. The same amount of blur with an M9 and an A7r will look almost twice as bad with an A7r. …... I like using the display like if I was looking downwards on the ground glass of a Hassy. When using slower shutter speeds, I find the use of the old Leica table tripod firmly pressed against my tummy a great help to avoid camera shake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3491 Posted December 10, 2013 At 35mm on the A7R I can get 100% keepers at 100% viewing magnification (peeping) at 1/125. On my M9 it's 1/60, M240 is somewhere in between. 5DII is 1/50. Those numbers seem pretty accurate. I'm still happily NEX6, and the EFSC lets me shoot at or near the cropped focal length without issue. 28=1/50 50=1/80 90=1/160th. Are there times I go lower? Sure. But I'm only dealing with 16mp not 36. Even with EFSC, I find I get I'm getting better results with a faster shutter speed. My full frame DSLR numbers are right around the focal length, but I'm using a 12mp Nikon D3 and I suppose I have developed a technique. EFSC makes the "plain" A7 more appealing to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3492 Posted December 10, 2013 Using a 36MP camera handheld and expecting to always get the most out of it is a questionable strategy to begin with. and this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedi996sps Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3493 Posted December 10, 2013 apologies, cant quite post large enough files here? :-( Sorry, this really was bugging me, as the image that i posted on this forum looks rubbish because of the downsizing and maximum image that i could post, so i have not done any favours to the focus/sharpness issue. Here is a drop box link to the full res jpeg, which can be viewed and downloaded, which for sharpness at f2.8 in my view is stunning. There, i now feel redeemed https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pmympk9fuw9yr8o/FdMxE0bQJL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3494 Posted December 10, 2013 I am having all sorts of problems with the A7R. I am having problems getting consistent focus and missed focus. No, it is not a down sampling problem. That physics idea is just ridiculous. Images that are blurred are blurred no matter what the MP count. I just don't get why I get great focus on some pictures and on a lot the focus is off. I am frustrated and beginning to think something else is going on... maybe the shutter is playing into it. I am having across the whole image color problems. Very weird purple/magenta color modeling. I'm using LR. Is this something that will improve with newer versions of the developer? All of my M-lenses except the WATE look not so good. Even my 50mm Summilux is just ok. My 90 Macro Elmar is stunningly fantastic, but the rest of my M-lenses below 50mm are just not what I am used to. I am going to give more time. But, I'm generally disappointed. I'm also having problems getting consistent focus on my R-lenses(tele). Color is meh. Not what can be worked with using the M240. A7R color is just ok so far with LR. Mag focus is a pain. So slow. Focus peeking sparle is way to wide to give accurate focus. The double pump that is needed to activate focus mag is frustrating as well. The shutter release is crappy. When on mag focus it is too easy to touch the shutter release and get premature cancellation of the mag focus. The shutter release speed is much faster than the M in LV, I believe. More to come. Hoping the weather gives some relief so it isn't so cold and I can get out and shoot more. Rick, I have to say, even from samples I've been seeing the results are really quite hit and miss. Enough to prevent me from placing an order. I find the colour not really right and the results with Leica lenses really quite average at times. There have been a few samples I've been quite impressed with though. Also it's hard to say wether it's coming down to user error and PP but the tonality seems quite harsh. I understand there are issues with the shutter causing vibrations and killing the sharpness. It's a hell of a loud shutter in a tiny body and this, to me, makes sense. I'm not in any way interested in having to put a camera like this on a tripod. That is ridiculous. I even wonder if it will eliminate the issue if it is indeed vibration from the shutter. I hand hold a 60MP Blad with no problems of sharpness. And that camera is a beast to steady and hold. It's a very well dampened body and system. I'm guessing it's also coming down to lens+sensor. Firstly because it's impossible to design a sensor for all lenses in the way this camera is being used by most and secondly I can't help but feel the Sony wants you to buy their lenses so have a design that favours that. The price point is there to get leverage, get you in and then upsell with lenses. Sony are a very clever company. I bet they are also introducing the slower lenses so you buy them now, in one years time the fast lenses will appear and then you will buy them too…. Lastly, I also think the camera pig ugly. I, at times, have issues with some clients when I pull the M9 out. They get worried and ask about my "old camera" when I tell them they invented the 35mm camera and have the best lenses in the world they are put at ease but they still have reservations, at times, about the small size. At this point I have to flash the Hasselblad and sometimes I take the Blad just to appease clients in this way which is annoying and ridiculous. AS soon as they see the pics they are fine and really surprised but it's kind of annoying process with new clients. My long meandering point is that with a Leica - I have to say the heritage and mystique do actually go along way with putting clients at ease in this regard. Really I shouldn't care because the results speak for them selves but when you are charging like mad you want things to be perfect. A dinky and ugly camera from a perceived consumer manufacturer like Sony I'm not sure is going to have the same effect. Client perception is a strange beast - I wish these things didn't matter but they do. I just wish Leica wold hurry up and give us a higher MP M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3495 Posted December 10, 2013 Thanks Paul. I would sum up my interest as trying to learn as much as possible, see what works and what doesn't, and not restrict myself to M lenses. There are hundreds and hundreds of web pages out there that have documented a few successes and many failures. I should have no problem finding a handful of lenses should work for me on the A7R. I am enjoying the journey as much as the destination. What about you? Are you happy? Cheers, yes the scope and potential is very impressive I am happy, actually mostly over the moon with my M9 and Blad and until I see a wider range of success with the A7r I'm not going to go there. I want 36 MP but it's still got to be right. Finding the time to test, when it seems so hit and miss, is not really something I have. I would rather spend the time shooting something that I consider a keeper with something I know works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3496 Posted December 10, 2013 You mentioned two cameras and four lenses. Can you clarify? Also, can you say a few words about the IQ with 80mm f/1.4 on A7R? Thanks. I tried each of the 4 lenses on the 2 cameras identified. I have not yet had time to analyze the 80/1.4 images. Perhaps tomorrow. @Jaap--Are images taken with Leica R lenses on a7r OK? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3497 Posted December 10, 2013 The lack of EFCS is going to be a problem handheld unless your shutter speeds are set WAY higher than you could hold them with a film M. A heavy double action shutter (kerrrr-klunnnnnnk,,kerrrr-klunnnnnnk) all of those MP, slower shutter speeds, and NO EFCS will lead to blurry pictures, especially at an unrealistic 100%, but probably earlier than that. If you have an A7 (not A7R,) you can test shoot the same subject hand held at a low shutter speed with the EFCS on and then do the same photo with it off. There may be a significant difference, and there may not. I saw no difference when doing this using the Nex 6 yesterday. The larger A7 shutter may cause more vibration. As for pixel count, of course a higher pixel count when viewed at 100% is giving greater magnification. This is the same as using a lower pixel count and shooting with a longer lens. It also reduces DOF which is calculated by magnification. With an A7R I would test shoot on a sturdy tripod then hold the camera and shoot a series of images of the same subject while reducing the shutter speed to see how much detail one loses at various points. Once you get down below 1/250, you'd probably want to shoot 5 or more frames at each speed. Ideally, keep the f stop and ISO constant and reduce the lighting for consistent exposures. People who don't accurately test and compare cameras this way are simply giving an opinion without applying an objective standard. What you and I find to be an acceptably sharp image may be two different things. I find the image that I shot at 1/2 second and posted a few pages back is quite good considering it was made at 1/2 second handheld. It also would be acceptable for many uses... especially anything on-screen. But it is hardly getting the most out of that camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3498 Posted December 10, 2013 Cheers, yes the scope and potential is very impressive I am happy, actually mostly over the moon with my M9 and Blad and until I see a wider range of success with the A7r I'm not going to go there. I want 36 MP but it's still got to be right. Finding the time to test, when it seems so hit and miss, is not really something I have. I would rather spend the time shooting something that I consider a keeper with something I know works. Hi Paul, it's good to hear from you. If I were a working photographer making a living with my photographs I probably would concentrate on the same things as you do. However, it takes all sorts of folks to move a field forward. Unless there are camera and lens designers and manufacturers and photographers who shake out the bugs you would never have the option of a more advanced future camera that satisfies all your needs with respect to performance, reliability, and haptics. If you could I really would appreciate seeing more of your images. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3499 Posted December 10, 2013 Cheers, yes the scope and potential is very impressive I am happy, actually mostly over the moon with my M9 and Blad and until I see a wider range of success with the A7r I'm not going to go there. I want 36 MP but it's still got to be right. Finding the time to test, when it seems so hit and miss, is not really something I have. I would rather spend the time shooting something that I consider a keeper with something I know works. Horses for courses. I am serious. but do not make a living at photography. However, I cannot hand hold My 503CW with a 100 Planar and a P45+. In fact even on tripod I must lock up the mirror before shooting in order to be certain of no mirror slap. I feel the same the with a7r-tripod is better than a fast shutter speed. But then again I use it mostly with R long and wide lenses. The FE35 I got just to see how it performs and for sure the images are fine with that lens for my purposes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted December 10, 2013 Share #3500 Posted December 10, 2013 If you have an A7 (not A7R,) you can test shoot the same subject hand held at a low shutter speed with the EFCS on and then do the same photo with it off. There may be a significant difference, and there may not. I saw no difference when doing this using the Nex 6 yesterday. The larger A7 shutter may cause more vibration. The results are difficult to duplicate, there are a few variables as well, hand hold technique, focal length, shutter speed. On my NEX 6 I have stuck with the EFCS, but I use it strictly handheld. What are the benefits of using the double action, non EFCS on the A7R? Does the sensor necessitate it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.