The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[woorob]

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Does anyone know if the Nikon SB800 flash will work with the A7/A7R in TTL mode?

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[dwbell]

Another comparison set is up;

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/seznnrgt40oyslj/ZqqTzKde_C/A7R%20vs%20M240%20Cottage

 

Same scene, aperture sweep, with;

 

A7R + 35FE

A7R + 35Cron

M240 + 35Cron

 

A7R + 50Lux

M240 + 50Lux

 

A7R + 75Cron

M240 + 75 Cron

 

Focus is on the sat dish centre frame.

I limited the upload to every other stop die to the large number of files it would have been otherwise. Note I did leave the 50Lux at 1.4 (by request) in there so watch that when importing and comparing in a film strip like scenario.

Sorry about the weather.

 

Did the link work?

If no, does this?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgk7djcjjxkkp46/RRMqho9MUE

[woorob]

Did the link work?

If no, does this?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgk7djcjjxkkp46/RRMqho9MUE

 

Yes, this link works.

 

Thanks!

[jankap]

In the center is a Leica badge to check if the focusing is spot on.

 

Anybody help identify whether the variation of vigeneeting pattern is due to A signle of a combination of attributes such as:

1. Adapter difference

2.Lense design

3. Focal length

4. Aperture setting

 

Thanks. A horrible collection in the fírst view.

The adapter should not.

Lens design would be for other cameras valid. Telecentric plays a role. So yes.

Focal length yes.

Aperture yes.

 

Vignetting is more or less uninteresting. Most Leica lenses vignet up to 2 fstops (see technical data: 25%=2 f-stops).

Correcting of the vignetting delivers more noise in the corners, of course.

 

Smearing is uncorrectable. This is the main problem. Your test cannot show this.

Real brickwalls would show this.

 

Sorry, but I am thinking of switching from my Ricoh GXR.

Jan

[woorob]

Originally Posted by dwbell

 

Same scene, aperture sweep, with;

 

A7R + 35FE

A7R + 35Cron

M240 + 35Cron

 

A7R + 50Lux

M240 + 50Lux

 

A7R + 75Cron

M240 + 75 Cron

Wow, HUGE download (and thanks again!).

 

Based on these images, it seems that at some focal lengths the Sony does better (35mm) while at others the M does better (75mm). Interesting and very worthwhile comparison.

[fotoingo]

Does anyone know if the Nikon SB800 flash will work with the A7/A7R in TTL mode?

 

Why should it work?

Nikon TTL will only work with Nikon Cameras.

[CaptZoom]

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Does anyone know if the Nikon SB800 flash will work with the A7/A7R in TTL mode?

 

It seems unlikely. On the other hand, I'm curious about Sony's flagship speedlite- it's unique and seems to be designed rather well.

[k-hawinkler]

My conclusions are the same as with the "Landscape" test.

 

A7R + 35 FE is a higher quality image than the M240 + 35 Cron at all apertures. Except in the corners where the M240 + 35Cron has the slight edge.

 

All M lenses I have on the A7R are impressive in the centre 75% of the image and fall down a touch moving out.

 

I'm looking forward to the 55 FE and future 85 FE. If it continues like the 35FE results then I'm probably looking at moving away from Leica to a cheaper, higher IQ, lighter, more versatile for my style of shooting system.

 

 

Many thanks for the images. I looked at them after having processed some as described before. This is my take:

 

• I prefer the A7R + 35 FE over the M240 + 35 Cron as well, especially when stopping down a bit. Excellent image quality.

• A7R + 50 Lux really needs stopping down a bit for the corners. Hopefully the A7R + 55 FE will perform even better.

• I would use A7R + 75 Cron stopped down just a tad. Wonderful detail when properly processed with Nik.

 

As the WATE 16-18-21/4 ASPH and the Vario-Elmarit-R ASPH 28-90/2.8-4.5 also seem to perform sufficiently well on the A7R I am cooling even more to the idea of acquiring an M240, considering its inferior EVF performance and substandard electronic behavior in general. I am also looking forward to use my tele R lenses finally on a FF camera, the A7R. And for getting a RangeFinder fix I can use my M9 that I will keep for sure. Hopefully Leica will be able to repair it in the future if that should become necessary.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

 

Oh BTW it looked like you had a bit of precipitation in your neck of the woods.

Well, at our place we got ½ foot of new snow overnight, turning the Land of Enchantment also into a Winter Wonderland as soon as the Sun breaks through the clouds as it undoubtedly will in just a short while.

[Peter H]

The thing is I'm not willing to pay one dollar more than the correct price. I also buy all my stuff at the same place for loyalty reasons (loyalty going both ways).

 

Are you sure you're aiming your loyalty in the right direction if your dealer is either trying to charge a premium or if they simply can't get a camera for you which has been fairly widely available for a good few months now?

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the example photos that people have been posting. Very helpful and kind.

[IkarusJohn]

Peter H asked a page or so back for impressions of the camera.

 

I'd have to say that I like the camera a lot, but still have some reservations. The form factor is nice, but then so is the M camera. I enjoy that size of camera - it fits well in the hands, it's lighter than the Leica, and feels well made. The buttons are largely well placed, though there are too many of them. Ideally, I would want:

 

• an ISO button, and an EV Comp button (they could be combined in some clever way,
  
• shutter speed
  
• shutter release
  
• video button
  
• the dial on the back for shifting the focal point, and
  
• menu and playback, delete and info buttons
  

 

I like the idea of the programmable buttons on the A7R, but to be honest, there are too many buttons for my taste - I haven't worked ou what to do with them. I would like simplified controls (Leica does this well).

 

Not sure I understand the references to plastic in some posts above. It feels like it will keep taking pictures for as long as the electronics hold out. And here is the point - the electronics are what this camera is about, and they are clearly state of the art. The EVF is fantastic, the LCD and how it works is very good, and the menu system a vast improvement on the mess of the NEX menu system.

 

In terms of image quality, from the little I've done, I would be confident shooting any of my lenses from 21 up. The ZM 15/2.8 is a disaster on this camera, but the 21 Summilux is fine, and the 28 Summicron doesn't seem to exhibit the same problems seen elsewhere (I suppose you can go looking for anything and find it). Granted, Leica does a lot of in camera correction, and you get to see how much with the wides on the A7R. That doesn't really bother me as much as it does Thighslapper, and others. I agree that it's better to use Leica lenses on Leica cameras, but as Leica is steadfastly refusing to make this camera (despite very clear demand) means that some of us inevitably consider the alternatives. Given time, I will build up corrections in LightRoom which will do a similar job to Leica's in-camera corrections.

 

At this stage, the M(240) is not on the horizon for me - I'm not saying the A7R is a competitor for the M(240). The M(240) is in a class of its own, which I'm not interested in - an expensive case and fantastic optical view finder with a great sensor (apparently), and what appear to be indifferent electronics which we can realistically expect Leica to do a less than average job of supporting (its history of supporting its digital products is firmly against it). That does not mean the M(240) owners out there need to feel threatened, criticised or defensive. It's just that FOR ME I will not spend that sort of money for a camera with less than state of the art electronics which Leica will not or cannot support (fix problems with, upgrade or provide a longevity which the price would justify). The A7R fills a different spot - fantastic electronics, priced accordingly. If it was a Leica (i.e., Sony quality electronics, corrected for Leica lenses and wrapped in a Leica body with Leica's approach to controls), I'd buy it. But it isn't, and the Sony is the only camera in this sector.

 

The compromise with Leica lenses is there for all to see. Unlike others, I am not interested in Sony lenses. I don't want another system - the heart of my photography is my Leica lenses, and the cameras are the disposable part (thanks to Leica).

 

Realistically, I'm really not interested in enlarging the corners of my shots 200% to satisfy myself that the image is perfect. I would hope that I could do that with my M cameras and M lenses (or delude myself into thinking that), but in reality I have no interest in looking for flaws. I take pictures for a variety of reasons - the majority get one viewing and then I move on. Some images get a bit of processing, and they get added to a digital folder, they might get shared, and then there is the odd shot which I look closely at, do quite a lot of adjustment to, and I then print.

 

The raw files from the A7R seem to me to contain enough quality data to warrant keeping the camera. Vignetting and a bit of colour shift don't really bother me - it's just another thing I will adjust when processing the image. Nor does a bit of sensor dirt (M9 and Monochrom) - I can fix that, provided the underlying data is good enough. So far, it seems to be.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers

John

[dwbell]

That's a great honest response John, thanks.

 

For what it's worth, I've grown up with computers (I'm not yet 40) and even though I do understand all the functions and what not on my canon bodies, I very rarely use but a few of them. It will be the same with my A7R. I'll learn what needs to be known and then shoot. I'm always somewhat confused with the "all the buttons" line - as once you've got into a camera there are only those buttons that you use. I'm only aiming this at you because it's convenient, so please don't take it personally. But your car, has all sorts of functions in the sub menus that you never use, does that deter you from simply driving the kids to school? The boiler in your house probably has more complex timer settings than you currently use - worry you when take a shower? On / Off, channel, volume and maybe mute - so few functions yet just look at your TV remote! This all just to explain my bemusement at that line of reasoning - not, of course, to suggest your an idiot or technophobe! I hope I'm ok 'using' you here.

 

Personally I really think some company, somewhere will get to the point where there are appropriately placed and well made dials and buttons, which are all user customisable via docking software (can dock wirelessly). Look at all the cameras in and around the A7 size. 3 dials, a couple buttons on the top and 4 to six buttons around a selection dial on the back. How long can it be before these are just like the wacom buttons? User customisable but without bricking the camera. Requires very solid pre-coding, but certainly not outside the realms of possibilities. Online communities would eventual come up with presets, to reduce the burden on those less willing, much like they do with Photoshop. There would be 'wedding', 'sports' 'travel' and so which all focus slightly more on different requirements. My bet would be that despite the almost infinite possibilities, eventually about 5 or 6 presets would settle. Brilliant for the user, huge kudos and support for the company and it crowd sources and solves the bigger problems in the variable usability and requirements of your product for you.

[dwbell]

Many thanks for the images. I looked at them after having processed some as described before. This is my take:

 

• I prefer the A7R + 35 FE over the M240 + 35 Cron as well, especially when stopping down a bit. Excellent image quality.

• A7R + 50 Lux really needs stopping down a bit for the corners. Hopefully the A7R + 55 FE will perform even better.

• I would use A7R + 75 Cron stopped down just a tad. Wonderful detail when properly processed with Nik.

 

As the WATE 16-18-21/4 ASPH and the Vario-Elmarit-R ASPH 28-90/2.8-4.5 also seem to perform sufficiently well on the A7R I am cooling even more to the idea of acquiring an M240, considering its inferior EVF performance and substandard electronic behavior in general. I am also looking forward to use my tele R lenses finally on a FF camera, the A7R. And for getting a RangeFinder fix I can use my M9 that I will keep for sure. Hopefully Leica will be able to repair it in the future if that should become necessary.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

 

Oh BTW it looked like you had a bit of precipitation in your neck of the woods.

Well, at our place we got ½ foot of new snow overnight, turning the Land of Enchantment also into a Winter Wonderland as soon as the Sun breaks through the clouds as it undoubtedly will in just a short while.

 

This is not the place, (maybe it is?) but I find the Sony noise pattern interesting, and different to canon, fuji and Leica. LR and Nik both handle it, it seems, in different ways. What's your preferred method and impressions - as you have more miles with this chip?

 

edit: Also, I'm with John about the corners thing. I hear an awful lot on forums about corner sharpness at max aperture, yet, tellingly I have not in recent memory seen ONE image where the corner sharpness was important that wasn't a test shot of a brick wall. So that said, if I need sharper corners on my A7R + 35FE on any occasion - well - I'll take shots of each corner individually and blend the sharp shots in to the centre shot in PS!

 

"Yeah but what if The Moment won't allow me to take 5 shots - THAT's why I shoot Leica!"

"If it's THAT much of a moment, then why do the corners matter so much? And secondly - show me such a shot - just one type of shot that has The Moment and needs corner sharpness at 1.4"

[dierk]

Hi there, that stuff is best ignored, trust me on that!

How is your 75/2 doing?

I tried the APO Cron 75/2 today and made a test with the M9 too.

 

My impression is, that the adapter is not good, a cheep one from far East. On the A7R the center is sharp, but left and right is unsharp? I did not expect that from longer lenses.

 

both on f/5.6, sharpening in LR 5.3: 35,1,35,0

no correction of colors, no other PP

click for larger images

 

the M9

 

and the A7R

 

 

PS:

I also did the Noctilux and the Macro-Elmar-M on the A7R

and comparing shots with the WATE Tri-Elmar 90/4 on M9 and A7R.

you find them here in my A7R test album at flickr:

A7R testimages with wide angle lenses - a set on Flickr

 

dierk

[naturephoto1]

I tried the APO Cron 75/2 today and made a test with the M9 too.

 

My impression is, that the adapter is not good, a cheep one from far East. On the A7R the center is sharp, but left and right is unsharp? I did not expect that from longer lenses.

 

both on f/5.6, sharpening in LR 5.3: 35,1,35,0

no correction of colors, no other PP

click for larger images

 

the M9

 

and the A7R

 

dierk

 

I don't know, they look close to me on the sides.

 

Rich

[dwbell]

My conclusions are the same as with the "Landscape" test.

 

A7R + 35 FE is a higher quality image than the M240 + 35 Cron at all apertures. Except in the corners where the M240 + 35Cron has the slight edge.

 

All M lenses I have on the A7R are impressive in the centre 75% of the image and fall down a touch moving out.

 

I'm looking forward to the 55 FE and future 85 FE. If it continues like the 35FE results then I'm probably looking at moving away from Leica to a cheaper, higher IQ, lighter, more versatile for my style of shooting system.

 

I'm adjusting my conclusion after some more shooting, and, specifically reducing the A7 file to the same native rez as the M240 and THEN comparing the two. Namely, the corners are equally good on both the A7R+35FE and the M240+35Cron when both are reduced to the M240 resolution. So the A7R+35FE is clearly better net.

[woorob]

My thoughts as well, can't really see any difference at the edges. But this is a jpeg so the RAW files might well show differences.

[IkarusJohn]

For what it's worth, I've grown up with computers (I'm not yet 40) and even though I do understand all the functions and what not on my canon bodies, I very rarely use but a few of them. It will be the same with my A7R. I'll learn what needs to be known and then shoot. I'm always somewhat confused with the "all the buttons" line - as once you've got into a camera there are only those buttons that you use. I'm only aiming this at you because it's convenient, so please don't take it personally. But your car, has all sorts of functions in the sub menus that you never use, does that deter you from simply driving the kids to school? The boiler in your house probably has more complex timer settings than you currently use - worry you when take a shower? On / Off, channel, volume and maybe mute - so few functions yet just look at your TV remote! This all just to explain my bemusement at that line of reasoning - not, of course, to suggest your an idiot or technophobe! I hope I'm ok 'using' you here.

 

Oh, I agree entirely.

 

We had a computer at school, and I have used computers (with a bit of a gap in the middle years before PCs became widely available) for the last 40 years. I understand and agree with your point entirely.

 

There is, however, a point at which learning the underlying philosophy of a product and getting it to work becomes a drag. Like websites, computer software, programming your TV and using a camera, there is usually a common way of setting up the technology which makes entry easy. Sadly, we do not have a level of standardisation that would genuinely make the world an easier place, but there are some standards. A car manufacturer would not, for example, put the accelerator on the left and the brake on the right.

 

I tend to read the manual of a product I have invested a lot in, to make sure I can make the most of it. A lot of that time will be understanding the philosophy and overall approach, working out what I don't have any interest in, and then making the most of what I am interested in. Bang & Olufsen stereo systems seriously pissed me off in the early days because they did things in a different way; not because it was inherently good or necessary, but I suspect because they wanted to be different.

 

With the Sony, I really don't need 10 buttons and three dials (or 8 and 5, if you prefer). Programmable - great, but more direct control of what I want to control and less of the rest would be better.

 

For Leica, if they get to grips with the idea that (a) people actually like the simplicity of controlling aperture, shutter speed & ISO with direct buttons and dials rather than menu systems (the digital world hasn't changed that formula for capturing images), and ( the digital age means that the under the hood adjustments can be made with a smart phone or computer, then we might get somewhere.

 

This Leica would have the three light controls, and the ability to change settings through a menu system (I like the menu on the Monochrom & M9) and to review the histogram etc - but it would have a fantastic sensor (upgradable), and fantastic EVF (also upgradable), and a beautiful form.

 

Meh! It won't happen.

 

John

[NJH]

Funny thing is the first thing I spotted was the dust bunny on the top image. As someone who came to my Leica M8 via a string of Olympus cameras I have had to correct probably 20x as many images already for dust bunnies despite the fact I always blow out and artic butterfly after spotting a dust bunny.

 

I find this funny because lots of people will moan about perhaps having to put more work in PP with the Sony yet ignore stuff like frequent dust bunny cloning out with images from the digital Ms. Honestly I find it a real pain.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dwbell]

John, if you've ever ridden bicycles a lot then you'll know that brakes on the left or right side of the handlebar for the front or rear brake still isn't standardised! I can attest to that in my travels - and show you the scars!

 

You get my point, and I thank you for being gracious in doing so. Not to labor it too much but Leica refuse to put an ISO dial on the camera, whereas Sony put too many on. I just find Sony to be less f****d up I guess. I'd rather have the camera set up how I want it and then not use the excess, then not have it available in the first place. I prefer low contrast high DR raw as I can add contrast, you can't go the other way. I tend for greater DoF these days as I can blur out in post where it's distracting, you can't go the other way. I shoot in colour in the rare chance it may in fact work in colour (never!) as I can always develop to B&W, you can't go the other way (ignoring hand colouring!). I want the high ISO as I can always remove noise, I can't add data that isn;t there in the low ISO shot. It's this mantra that kind of goes through my usage of the tools throughout.

 

Someone will invariable tone in that constraints enable art, and so on and so. If I choose to only take the 35mm lens with me then that is my choice of restriction. If the maker of my tool chooses to restrict my ISO range, or restrict my focusing capabilities, or restrict time between shots through an ancient processor and inadequate buffer - that's not artistic exercise - it's shit product!

 

Anyway - I need to shoot heavily with the Sony through next week to get really a feel for how it is in the field, there are some problems I'm already finding but I'll tell you one thing, I thought I would pack both and see how it goes. I've packed next weeks grab bag tonight to put into the car, and it's Leicaless for the first time in 4 years.

[thighslapper]

Peter H asked a page or so back for impressions of the camera.

 

I'd have to say that I like the camera a lot, but still have some reservations. The form factor is nice, but then so is the M camera. I enjoy that size of camera - it fits well in the hands, it's lighter than the Leica, and feels well made. The buttons are largely well placed, though there are too many of them. Ideally, I would want:

 

• an ISO button, and an EV Comp button (they could be combined in some clever way,
  
• shutter speed
  
• shutter release
  
• video button
  
• the dial on the back for shifting the focal point, and
  
• menu and playback, delete and info buttons
  

 

Cheers

John

 

Much as I admire what Japanese Camera manufactures can do under the bonnet they seem to leave design and ergonomics to a child of 6......

 

Having to press the c2 button (which is recessed and difficult to access) before zooming in on taken images with the rear deal is idiotic ..... it should happen by default during review of the image.....

 

The review image button is stuck in the middle of nowhere and doesn't come to hand easily at all.

 

There are more buttons than you can shake a stick at with endless options to reassign functions I will never use, none of which are arranged in any sane order..... and if anything with this number the camera is actually a bit too small.

 

I'm trying very hard to like this camera and justify my expenditure ..... but at times I am struggling......

 

Took a whole load of images this afternoon with the summicron 35/2 ....... and although the very central part of the image is fine, performance deteriorates rapidly towards the edges ....... supporting my initial thoughts that I won't be using this with most WA lenses