The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[Rick]

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Hi Rick,

 

If you replaced Leica electronics with Leica lens specific algorithms that would make more sense IMHO.

With regards to electronics and robustness Leicahas some catching up to do.

 

I'll stick with the term electronics. I consider the sensor design as part of the electronics.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say robustness needs catching up?

 

The Sony images, you have to admit, are making the M smell like a rose. Really, have you seen much posted yet on the Web that looks any good from the Sony + other-manufacturer's lenses? Go over to Fred Miranda and people aren't real enthused right now by what is being posted from these kinds of lenses.

 

Below are the corner shots with the Leica 28/2. The first is M240. The second is the Sony A7R (courtesy of Mr. Jones) The M240 looks sweet. The Sony A7R looks Blah! That isn't just some fancy algorithm from Leica. That is superior sensor technology and electronics.

 

 

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[Thomas Chen]

I think what many M lens owners want to see is if some of the wide lenses can produce good detail in the corners comparable to what Leica bodies can achieve with those lenses. (No smearing.) If that's the case then it is worth investigating the various methods to compensate for vignetting and color shifting.

 

As indicated by SAR I find from Sony Taiwan online a SONY app called "Lense Compensation" which allows user to key in the lens name, focal length, and aperture setting as a preset by manually adjusting 1. peripheral shading (vignetting and color shift), 2. color aberration, 3. distortion. User can apply this preset in shooting if camera setting for a particular scene matches the preset. To see how it works in video , please hit the link below

 

https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/usbdetail.php?eid=IS9104-NPIA09014_00-000008

 

It cost about US$ 10 but just for NEX5 and NEX6 so far, however, I guess Sony will bring out a similar app soon taking into account the popularity of 7A/7AR. It's not a perfect solution, well, we deserve to pay the penalty for not buying a premium-priced camera.

[k-hawinkler]

Rick,

 

Thanks for making my point so well.

[Guest polygamer]

As indicated by SAR I find from Sony Taiwan online a SONY app called "Lense Compensation" which allows user to key in the lens name, focal length, and aperture setting as a preset by manually adjusting 1. peripheral shading (vignetting and color shift), 2. color aberration, 3. distortion. User can apply this preset in shooting if camera setting for a particular scene matches the preset.

Hi, I have this app installed on my NEX-6. In the coming days, I shall play around with it a bit to see what it does.

 

I do not expect, however, that it will sharpen soft corners. At least, this capability is not mentioned in the documentation.

 

But perhaps the coming A7/R version will do so. This would be a major achievement for SONY, because soft corners are notoriously hard to sharpen.

 

Talking of sharpness, my interest in the SONY A7/R is softening ...

 

Having an M9, several NEXes and Pens, I can wait, and see ...

[Rick]

Rick,

 

Thanks for making my point so well.

 

Sorry, the first shot is the M240.

 

In the case you realize this and think that the first shot is so amazing because of what you call, "Leica lens specific algorithms" then turn off the in camera correction for the 28/2 Cron in the M240 and it would still look amazing especially compared to the Sony A7R.

 

The Leica sensor is designed to respond very well to very oblique incident rays of light. From the examples we have seen so far on the web, the Sony does not seem to be designed well for this.

 

Maybe, Sony chose a thicker low pass IR-blocking filter. Leica certainly went a little thinner on the M240 and some have commented on the higher IR sensitivity and thought it was a design flaw that Leica should have noticed. I'm sure it was a design choice by Leica to stay compatible to M lenses.

 

The effect of a thicker IR filter would produce an image that looks more astigmatic as tangential rays would be travel further through the thicker filter glass, which would shift their focus point. No amount of applied lens algorithm would correct the Sony sensor if this is indeed the problem.

 

Since, I shoot mainly the 28/2... the A7R is looking like it might only be a choice for my longer R lenses. Beyond the longer lenses I guess it never really was going to be smaller than the Leica, lengthwise, and it certainly isn't turning out to be competitive with Leica image quality in the M wides... the RX1 owns 35mm with the Leica M... so for Leica M owners there isn't much left for the Sony to lift.

[CaptZoom]

We're on a Leica forum, so the point is moot but it's worth iterating that we do not know how the Sony A7® will play with native wide angle lenses (if indeed Sony ever releases any). We do not yet have enough information to make summary judgements regarding A7® being subpar for wide angle photography. They may well (probably will) turn out to be subpar for some (many?) Leica wide angle lenses, but honestly, we all expected at least some compromises. For me even if the A7r can't handle a single Leica wide angle lenses, it still remains a possible (probable) purchase because wide angle photography is not essential for me. As long it can handle longer than 50mm (as far as M glass is concerned), I'll be happy.

[luigi bertolotti]

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Indeed, the comparision with Summicron 28 is impressive... not only on smearing (for which I think that no "App" can help) but on global color rendition : I wonder why the comparision with Summilux 21 looks a lot less dramatical... I understand that WATE is all another design - highly telecentric - but 28/2 and 21/1,4 ought not to be so different in this aspect.

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Rick,

 

Thanks. You make indeed some valid points.

I approach the subject from a different angle.

 

Leica has a relatively large installed base of M lenses.

A base they really cannot abandon like they did with the R line.

So, until organic sensors exhibit film like behavior Leica is being forced to cope with their traditional lens designs.

They do so indeed through their specific sensor design and through lens specific in-camera algorithmic corrections.

Of course, they also employ different lens designs like the WATE.

Those don't seem to be affected by some of these issues.

AFAIK there exist only a handful of fundamentally different lens designs, all going back about 100 years.

 

Some of them seem more amenable to currently typical sensor designs, others less so.

Without an installed lens base other companies have the freedom to go a different route.

Sony and Fuji certainly seem to be doing just that.

And of course nowadays ZEISS seems to excel in choosing appropriate lens design(s) as a starting point for their inspired lenses.

 

I believe the Sony A7R is capable of delivering stunning images with appropriate lenses.

Except for relatively few exceptions, like the WATE, unfortunately Leica's WA M lenses don't seem to be an appropriate fit.

Leica's R lenses certainly might fare a lot better, as will some SLR lenses.

 

In particular the ZEISS Otus 55/1.4 has gotten my attention not only to be used on my D800E but also on the A7R.

 

Carl Zeiss Otus 55 mm f/1.4 ZE/ZF.2 review - Introduction - Lenstip.com

LensRentals.com - Otus is Scharf

 

One characteristic of Leica M lenses will be very hard to match, namely their relatively small size.

[dwbell]

Anyone know how the Zeiss FE 35 will look on the M240?

 

The M240 is designed for Leica glass.

The A7R is designed with Zeiss Sony glass.

 

That's the first comparison I need to make.

[k-hawinkler]

Indeed, that would be very interesting, I mean a comparison.

 

Leica M-mount flange focal distance (FFD) 27.80 mm

Sony E-mount flange focal distance (FFD) 18 mm

 

I doubt there is an E, FE lens to M camera adapter.

One certainly could not focus to infinity.

 

I just ordered that lens as well.

My A7R and FE 35/2.8 lens are still scheduled to be shipped on December 1, 2013.

[Thomas Chen]

I do love Leica M, having seven sets of M bodies including analog and digital, together with a few dozens of M lenses.

 

Having had working experience at the Electronic division in the Auto industry, I don't like my car "locking up" in the highway where the scenery is so beautiful through the windshield (a kind of optical view finder).

 

Before the advent of M260, 280, or even M300 that ensures no lock-up, my last resort is either Leica D-Lux or some "alien" cameras such as Sony and others.

[helged]

One characteristic of Leica M lenses will be very hard to match, namely their relatively small size.

 

The small, light-weight, large-aperature, durable, high-quality Leica optics, combined with FF sensors without too much of image degradation (M9, M240, MM), were and remain the reasons that I went from Mamyia 7 MF film to Leica FF digital. Yes, Leica is expensive and the production is far from speedy, but western-build, niche instruments are expensive. The A7/A7R system looks impressive and adds to the RF diversity and competition, which are all good. But as of now, Sony does not look like a substitute for Leica for me. The Sony bodies could very well be an addition or back-up to Leica, but no substitute, and the Sony/Zeiss lens line is limited (as of now). It will be interesting to see what the next incarnation of M240 and MM will bring, whenever that will happen, as well as what Sony's (and possibly Fuji's) next FF RF bodies will look like. Interesting times for the patient ones...

[Mr_Jones]

Mr [Andy] Jones,

 

 

Unless I'm missing something, I must say I've not seen a single image from the A7R with Leica glass that truly impresses me. Most of the corners appear smeared and the overall resolution is not what I would have expected from a 36 megapixel sensor. I've opened the Sony RAW files directly in Photoshop CC as .ARW files using the latest camera raw plug-in (version 8.3). Perhaps the images will render better when suitable camera calibration profiles are available, and I will conduct some tests of my own when I receive the camera in about two weeks' time, but for now I must say I'm rather disappointed and wonder if I didn't make a mistake selling my M9-P (which maybe I should have kept as my backup). Time will tell, perhaps the Zeiss lenses will do a better job on this camera.

 

 

I am seeing some impressive images from the Sony but like most people I've not had it long enough or been anywhere with it to have created any works of art yet! In terms of the creating an impression with less than incredible subject matter I've yet to find a camera better than the M9 and I include the M240 in that list. I personally favour CCD and have turned down the M240 because I dislike the files in the same way that I dislike the Sony files. I just prefer the straight out of camera colour and rendition of the M9.

 

On the other hand the Sony is a great second body for a lot of reasons.

[Mr_Jones]

Below are the corner shots with the Leica 28/2. The first is M240. The second is the Sony A7R (courtesy of Mr. Jones) The M240 looks sweet. The Sony A7R looks Blah! That isn't just some fancy algorithm from Leica. That is superior sensor technology and electronics.

 

Just to make this clear. My shots are with the M9 not the M240. However the M240 is better than the M9 at controlling smearing in corners. I prefer the M9 rendering anyway, just personal taste though.

[Mr_Jones]

In order to show a little balance I'm including a link to a 'good' A7r raw!

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4999128/DSC00155.arw

 

and a low light example of a 'pretty' scene.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4999128/DSC00136.arw

 

I've got brick walls with a 50mm too, but there's nothing to see there. It really looks like a brick wall shot with a 50/2, sharp all over.

 

I would like to see some side by sides with the M240, I think the sensor types will render much closer than the M9/A7r does.

[dwbell]

Indeed, that would be very interesting, I mean a comparison.

 

Leica M-mount flange focal distance (FFD) 27.80 mm

Sony E-mount flange focal distance (FFD) 18 mm

 

I doubt there is an E, FE lens to M camera adapter.

One certainly could not focus to infinity.

 

I just ordered that lens as well.

My A7R and FE 35/2.8 lens are still scheduled to be shipped on December 1, 2013.

 

Mine arrives today K-H. You can hit me up for test shots as of tomorrow I guess. I've seen your request lists before though - so be gentle!

[k-hawinkler]

Midnight Crazy Comparison! HIGH ISO – Sony A7, A7r, Leica M and E-M1! | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

[3D-Kraft.com]

These examples demonstrate that Leica electronics, sensor, optics and applied knowledge in this area is far superior to Sony. Contrary to a few repeatable post here on the forum, Leica electronics is not woefully behind. It is actually on the cutting edge... 43.3mm to be exact.

 

Rick, these examples only demonstrate, that Sony puts less priority on compatibility with legacy Leica lenses than Leica.

 

And of course a sensor/electronics design that does not support to move the live view / EVF focus aid (magnfication area) out of the center is IMHO far away from cutting edge.

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[3D-Kraft.com]

Midnight Crazy Comparison! HIGH ISO – Sony A7, A7r, Leica M and E-M1! | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

 

We should bear in mind that here the JPEG engine as well as an unbalanced exposure has a significant impact on the results - but OK - it is a "crazy comparison" and there everything is allowed ;-)

 

Comparing results with adjusted scaling (not 1:1 pixels) and processed from RAW would tell a completely different story...

[stevelap]

I realise I'm in a minority here but I'm really more interested in how the A7/R performs with its own Zeiss FE lenses, i.e. as a standalone DSLR replacement (maybe using longer R's on it would be interesting but that's probably about it for me).

 

Leica's M's are rangefinders first and foremost as far as I'm concerned....if and when (almost certainly, when) they introduce an AF CSC then that camera v the A7/R will be a more valid comparison to make.

 

Of course I understand the interest in using M lenses on less expensive bodies, and that's fine, but using Leica lenses on Leica bodies and Nikkor lenses on Nikon bodies etc, etc. is surely preferable (there are forced exceptions, e.g. there is no current Leica FF DSLR body for R lenses, just as there is no current Olympus FF body for Zuiko lenses).