The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[IkarusJohn]

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The experts here will rubbish that idea reasonably quickly ...

[AlanG]

 

When I get one, I will line up every lens I have and give them all a shot - any advice? I don't have a brick wall ... I was thinking of a garden scene or landscape, tripod, shutter speed 3x 1/focal length, and as wide as the light allows. Happy to take suggestions and to post links to the raw files here.

 

My thought after observing various tests and examples is all you really need to do is see if there is smearing in the corners. If you can get good detail in the corners, then one should be able to counter any reasonable amount of vignetting and color fringing. At worst this would require Capture One and a Lens Cast Correction file made using a white diffuser in front of the lens. And other methods could be employed of course.

 

As for the vignetting and color cast comparisons, I suggested elsewhere how to shoot this scientifically using a Plexiglass diffuser and making sure the contrast was the same on all processed images, the central areas were equal brightness on all tests, and the center was about a stop down from pure white.

[algrove]

I thought so!

Is there a lens you have not had over time multiple copies go?

Nah, I didn't think so!

 

I only have single copies of the Contax G AF lenses.

[IkarusJohn]

Thanks Alan, as I've said elsewhere,I'm not that concerned about colour shift and vignetting. It's the smearing and loss of detail I wish to test for.

 

 

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[AlanG]

Thanks Alan, as I've said elsewhere,I'm not that concerned about colour shift and vignetting. It's the smearing and loss of detail I wish to test for.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

If you have a raw processor that can do C/A and purple fringe correction on the Sony files, it would be good to see if that helps improve corner detail a bit. It might not as this looks different to me from C/A. When I tried using DXO's C/A correction on one of the posted jpegs, I didn't see much improvement. But maybe raws are different somehow?

 

Probably just wishful thinking on my part....

[Mr_Jones]

I used lightroom to reduce the ca in some of the 28mm files and it cleaned the colour up from the corners where there are leaves and sky but still left colour at the edges with little contrasting form. I guess the ca reduction algorithm is set up for edges of objects.

[dwbell]

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How odd this all is.

 

I imagine two of the main reasons most frequently given for the appeal of M cameras are the rangefinder experience and the quality of the lenses.

 

But we might be prepared to sacrifice the irreplaceable immediacy of the rangefinder that we've come to love because an EVF is OK after all. And then we might be prepared to use different lenses because they might work better on a non-rangefinder body than the beautiful Leica lenses that we love on our rangefinders.

 

If I'm not careful I'm going to get confused.

 

Interesting perspective Peter. While I could see it as odd for a 'Leica User' I see nothing out of place about it from my perspective.

 

I came to the Leica M9 for the smallest body and lens combination with a full frame sensor and excellent optics. I found, and still find the rangefinder an acceptable compromise. I still much prefer TTL accuracy for composition.

 

Lens wise, I do 'so much' to my images in post (compared to all the HCB's here) from raw that as long as the lens is 'excellent' I'm happy. Once I get into relative levels of excellence I feel I've lost the focus of the purpose of my work - I'm in to measurbating. My canon L glass is excellent. My Leica M glass is excellent. My Fuji X100S lens is excellent. The canon EF 18-55 kit lens from 14 years ago is not excellent. I have every reason to believe the Sony FE glass will be excellent.

 

I like AF, I like all the (derogatorily termed) bells and whistles. I'm adept enough that they don't 'get in the way' or 'make my decisions for me'. They actually help my art tremendously. EVF I love. Even my beloved canon feels 'retro' now with it's optical finder. I'm holding off on a new canon body (still on 5DIi - not a derogatorily termed 'must have latest and greatest' person at all) until I see where they go with EVF in the pro body line.

 

So for me the A7 line and it's Zeiss lenses tick all the boxes I ever wanted ticking. The M series and M glass just ticked more than the competition up until this point. I may be the only one who's here for these reasons. I suspect however that the success of the M9 is partly, maybe largely down to the 'ticking some of the boxes' effect. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in terms of sales of M bodies going forward.

[NJH]

I really love using my M8 and like the OVF a fair bit despite its limitations. I am on this thread for different reasons it seems to many, I just can't afford to plunk down 5K or 6K on a camera body and I don't really do enough photography to maintain multiple systems either. This is why the A7/r is so enticing as for reasonable money it offers on paper a one box that could do it all solution.

[stevelap]

Very happy that you received your A7r. I live in London and placed my order when the camera was announced and still have no confirmed date for when i can expect it. Cant wait to receive mine and test it out with my Leica glass.

 

I dont know why, it just seemed liked a good idea at the time, as none of the camera outlets i normally deal with, stock Sony, i placed my order with WEX .................

 

At the LCE (Reading) Sony day last Saturday (did you go?) I was told that they expected stock on 21st November, so other than orders placed directly with Sony, I would think that deliveries won't happen before then.

 

Regarding the camera, I was mildly disappointed with the look and fee of the A7 somehow (irrational I know, but an Olympus OM-D EM-1 with the 12-40 f/2.8 felt reassuringly solid), perhaps a slight lack of 'heft' with the kit zoom perhaps? I don't know. The 28-70 f/3.5-5.6 (not something I would buy) was the only FE lens available, it's build quality didn't seem that substantial and the manual focussing action had a 'fly-by-wire' feel that didn't feel good. I'm sure the Zeiss 24-70 f/4 FE will be better though, hopefully the 35 f/2.8 too.

The EVF was, as expected, very good and much improved over the previous generation (something Sony has in common with Olympus and the EM-1's EVF). Although I wasn't overly keen on the angular design of the main body section with its semi-gloss finish, the substantial grip is nicely implemented and ensures that the camera feel nice and solid in the hand.

[Mr_Jones]

There is no doubt a big difference in quality of the build and finish between the A7 that I have and the M9p. It's night and day. The A7 feels well built but doesn't stand up to the M at all. Like most M9 owners I wish the M9 had the reliability of the mechanical M's.

 

The more I compare the A7 and M9 the more respect I have for what Leica do. I know people will buy the A7r because it can do a lot of what the M9 or M240 are capable of. They are not buying an M though and putting aside the ttl vs rangefinder aspect anyone who's buys an M has the pleasure of using an exquisite piece of engineering.

 

I wonder for example how much precision goes into mounting the sony sensors in the body and aligning them with the mount. It's details and tolerances like this that Leica shine on.

[Thomas Chen]

I can't see why the two methods of remotes would be linked. I think the reason to turn off the IR remote function is to keep someone else from triggering your camera, or if you have more than one camera set up.

 

Alan, I think you are right.

 

The A7 product guide manual includes both RM-VPR1 (capable of both hard-wired and wireless remote control) and RMT-DSLR 2 (only wireless remote control) as the A7/A7R accessaries.

 

User has to decide which way to go without provoking any control conflict.

[dwbell]

There is no doubt a big difference in quality of the build and finish between the A7 that I have and the M9p. It's night and day. The A7 feels well built but doesn't stand up to the M at all. Like most M9 owners I wish the M9 had the reliability of the mechanical M's.

 

The more I compare the A7 and M9 the more respect I have for what Leica do. I know people will buy the A7r because it can do a lot of what the M9 or M240 are capable of. They are not buying an M though and putting aside the ttl vs rangefinder aspect anyone who's buys an M has the pleasure of using an exquisite piece of engineering.

 

I wonder for example how much precision goes into mounting the sony sensors in the body and aligning them with the mount. It's details and tolerances like this that Leica shine on.

 

Not to start the debate again, (lest Paul J accuse me of being an infectious canine!) but I would bet money on Sony every single time in terms of production accuracy, quality control and reliability. Same for canon, fuji etc. Basically all the developed modern companies who employ modern mass production methodologies.

[Peter H]

……... I would bet money on Sony every single time in terms of production accuracy, quality control and reliability. Same for canon, fuji etc. Basically all the developed modern companies who employ modern mass production methodologies.

 

I agree with that. Quality of materials used is, however, a very different matter. But given the very short life-span of most digital cameras, this won't be much of an issue I'm sure.

 

I think the A7 line deserves to succeed, I hope it does and I'm confident it will. It's what people want.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Leica version out soon either. Not a re-branded version but a higher-priced equivalent: Sony will not shy away from supplying competitors with sensors either, and any cannibalising of the M-line that might have been thought to prevent Leica from going this way will be done by Sony anyway, so the next year or so could be very interesting.

 

What Leica will do about AF is another question, but in time they'll have to do something to protect themselves unless they want the M9 and early M sales peak to represent nothing more than a brief golden phase in their modern history while the market readjusted itself to developing technologies.

[Mr_Jones]

I think Sony achieves the level of accuracy and tolerance they set out to, but I would expect that tolerance is easier to achieve than Leica. I would guess that looking at the A7 paint finish, the movement of the on/off shutter switch. finish on metallic parts, printing on the body and buttons, lcd rotation mechanism, diopter adjustment. I could give you lots of examples from my own A7r vs M9p.

 

I make high end bespoke furniture and it always frustrates me to explain to people why a piece costs a few thousand more to get a great paint finish, balance the proportions and have stable long term mechanical properties. If I had lower standards I could make furniture like Ikea. In short I trust Sony have reliably hit their lower targets. Fine for the price they are charging.

[Mr_Jones]

I think the A7 line deserves to succeed, I hope it does and I'm confident it will. It's what people want.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Leica version out soon either. Not a re-branded version but a higher-priced equivalent: Sony will not shy away from supplying competitors with sensors either, and any cannibalising of the M-line that might have been thought to prevent Leica from going this way will be done by Sony anyway, so the next year or so could be very interesting.

 

 

Looking at the A7r last night I thought there is no way Leica would make this camera. I don't think they could tame the edges of the 36mp sensor for legacy lenses either and I wouldn't be surprised if they already know that. On the other hand I think Sony will have an incredible success with this camera selling to people who can't or won't pay Leica prices.

[jedi996sps]

At the LCE (Reading) Sony day last Saturday (did you go?) I was told that they expected stock on 21st November, so other than orders placed directly with Sony, I would think that deliveries won't happen before then.

 

 

Hi Steve, thanks for your feedback. After an exchange of emails with LCE at Reading, i decided not to go, even though it is not too far from me. The reason being that primarily, they did not have the A7r or the zeiss lenses that i was interested in and finally, i did not manage to get the adapter that i wanted in time so would have been unable to test out for myself my leica lenses. Most of the 'issues' with non native lenses appear to be related to the use of wide angles. Thankfully, the results i have seen from the 50lux look great and i although i have not found any as yet with the 75cron, i am hoping they will also be equally as good. If i cannot use my 28cron then so be it, the 35 zeiss FE looks fabulous

 

I guess if you have an M8,9,240 and you look at any other camera, there is bound to be a bit of disappointment in comparative build quality and feel. But for me, the autofocus and a good zeiss lense in a small FF package is the primary attraction and as a bonus, you can use 'some' leica glass too.

 

Presumably, you were not so disappointed that you cancelled your order?

[dwbell]

I agree with that. Quality of materials used is, however, a very different matter. But given the very short life-span of most digital cameras, this won't be much of an issue I'm sure.

 

I think the A7 line deserves to succeed, I hope it does and I'm confident it will. It's what people want.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Leica version out soon either. Not a re-branded version but a higher-priced equivalent: Sony will not shy away from supplying competitors with sensors either, and any cannibalising of the M-line that might have been thought to prevent Leica from going this way will be done by Sony anyway, so the next year or so could be very interesting.

 

What Leica will do about AF is another question, but in time they'll have to do something to protect themselves unless they want the M9 and early M sales peak to represent nothing more than a brief golden phase in their modern history while the market readjusted itself to developing technologies.

 

Yes, true, but modern plastic with a magnesium chassis has survived war zones for canon and nikon for many years now. We could go round and round (I won't, promise ) but I would suggest that materials that are fit for propose are more important than "quality" materials. Add weight into the equation and my definition of quality materials moves away from solid billets of brass and towards fibre reinforced plastics.

 

Either way. This is the start of the cameras that I've been waiting for. And whoever comes aboard in the future will get an equal look at the inside of my wallet. But I struggle to see at the moment where Leica would fit in with this as it's so miniaturisation - software - electronics dependent. All areas where I feel Leica fall behind.

[dwbell]

I think Sony achieves the level of accuracy and tolerance they set out to, but I would expect that tolerance is easier to achieve than Leica. I would guess that looking at the A7 paint finish, the movement of the on/off shutter switch. finish on metallic parts, printing on the body and buttons, lcd rotation mechanism, diopter adjustment. I could give you lots of examples from my own A7r vs M9p.

 

I make high end bespoke furniture and it always frustrates me to explain to people why a piece costs a few thousand more to get a great paint finish, balance the proportions and have stable long term mechanical properties. If I had lower standards I could make furniture like Ikea. In short I trust Sony have reliably hit their lower targets. Fine for the price they are charging.

 

Agreed. And when we see the body being pretty much the disposable item it has become, I would suggest that the target Sony has in mind is more realistic. Good furniture is more than for life, it's for generations. Ikea is transitional functionality at best. But cameras are no longer for life and to be handed down.

 

(Edit - I was doing the product shots for my M9P sale in the classifieds here this weekend and it really is a beautiful camera, to look at, to hold - feels so much more 'nimble' than my M240. So no argument that's it's a hell of an object. I'm reluctant to sell it on those grounds alone! Alas in functionality, as an image making tool - it falls short of what I'm after. This exercise also taught me that my canon 200L prime also has some magenta cast in the corners, never looked for it before I was a Leica owner! Live and learn!)

[Mr_Jones]

I'm not really prepared to sell the M9p for the A7r, I'd rather back the A7r and get the M240 or keep the M9p and A7r. As long as I can stand the depreciation on the M9p it's still a fantastic body at base ISO, and it's a rangefinder and compatibility with legacy glass is assured.

 

I see the A7r as a great body for low light, low weight applications and with longer lens lengths, macro etc. where the rangefinder is not so great. If you throw in an FE lens then you have autofocus for the times when you need it.

 

Of course it always depends on what the money means to you and selling the M9p might be important.

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Hallo,

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[Peter H]

…………….

(Edit - I was doing the product shots for my M9P sale in the classifieds here this weekend and it really is a beautiful camera, to look at, to hold - feels so much more 'nimble' than my M240. ………..)

 

So many opportunities to disagree!

 

I find my M so much better to use than my M9 in every way.

 

Well, it's opinions that make a market isn't it?