buying a film M camera

[wofsy]

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At my teacher's advice I am going to buy a Leica M film camera and have been searching on line. There are many options for M3,M2, M4's but I have no idea how to judge the condition and quality of the cameras listed or what price to pay.

 

I have zero interest in collector's value but just want an M that I can rely on. Any advice?

[earleygallery]

Firstly I should say, try using the search function because this question (or similar) comes up a lot, and you will get as many different suggestions as responses!

 

The key things to consider are your budget, which lenses you intend to use (as viewfinders differ in some models) and if you prefer a built in or hand held meter.

 

Apart from the Leica M models you can also consider the Leica CL (or Minolta equivalent), the Zeiss camera and the various Voigtlander M mount models.

 

My M of choice is an M2, a great usable camera with 35/50/90 frame lines. They were sold in good numbers new, therefore easy to find s/h at good prices.

 

As a newcomer I would also suggest that you buy from a dealer with a warranty,

[sblitz]

while i have a different favorite (m4), more important james has given you excellent advise.

 

steve

[wofsy]

Thanks to both of you. I see quotes for M2's in the $1000 range from reputable dealers . One dealer offers an M4 film advance lever on the M2 - custom modified. The dealer is well reviewed on the web.

 

As far as frame lines go I will start wide and am willing to adjust to shooting without framelines. Over time I expect to add a 35mm lens to the 21 mm and may go longer down the road,

 

Can you suggest dealers?

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello wofsy,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

M4 & M3 film advance levers are easily interchangable. I wouldn't let 1 or the other be a determining factor.

 

You might try reading some "I love my M(blank)" Threads to read about some of the differences.

 

For all intents & purposes most film M's are pretty much the same except for differences in viewfinders & meters or not.

 

For most picture taking purposes the 1 in your hand is the best 1 to use.

 

A reputable dealer with a good guarantee is a good idea. If 1 is not available you should add the cost of cleaning, lubricating & adjusting by a competent person. There is a list available.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[james.liam]

Thanks to both of you. I see quotes for M2's in the $1000 range from reputable dealers . One dealer offers an M4 film advance lever on the M2 - custom modified. The dealer is well reviewed on the web.

 

As far as frame lines go I will start wide and am willing to adjust to shooting without framelines. Over time I expect to add a 35mm lens to the 21 mm and may go longer down the road,

 

Can you suggest dealers?

 

If you're in the US, there are several dealers that offer M bodies at decent prices; Igor Camera (Ohio), Bergen County Camera (New Jersey), Camerawest (California). And there's always Adorama and B&H.

Just my experience... I considered (?agonized over) all of these recently when I decided on M film cameras. At this point, an M6 Classic .72 will cost about the same. Compared to the M2/M4 they're newer, incorporate the easier film loading mechanism and have a built-in meter. Just more convenient.

 

A 35mm lens is in fact a good starting point and the Zeiss options, especially the 35/2.8 C is a phenomenal lens at a great price; I bought one recently for about $650 in demo condition from Popflash Photo. Personally find that FL a more natural one for RFs.

[cobbu2]

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I can personally vouch for the M4-2, the underrated stepchild of the M4 family. Not flashy, but you have the standard frame lines (35, 50, 90, 135) without the viewfinder flare problems of later models, a hot shoe and the ability to attach the winder (not in my opinion a big deal). Whatever problems the early production examples might have had, they've most likely been ironed out by now. The good news is, they generally run a little cheaper than most other M bodies, so are excellent values.

[earleygallery]

Thanks to both of you. I see quotes for M2's in the $1000 range from reputable dealers . One dealer offers an M4 film advance lever on the M2 - custom modified. The dealer is well reviewed on the web.

 

As far as frame lines go I will start wide and am willing to adjust to shooting without framelines. Over time I expect to add a 35mm lens to the 21 mm and may go longer down the road,

 

Can you suggest dealers?

 

OK, first off forget the M3, the viewfinder doesn't match the lens/es you intend to use.

 

You don't say which lens you will start with but reading between the lines I'm assuming a 28mm? If so you really want an M4-P, or M6/7/P with a standard 0.72 viewfinder.

 

You could use an M2/4-2/4/5 and shoe mounted finders for wider than 35mm.

 

As for dealers - where are you based? A good starting point would be Leica dealers - if you visit the Leica website you will find a dealer list to find your nearest ones.

 

Then there's a range of specialist used camera dealers to look at, but I would suggest that ideally you buy from a local dealer who you can then return to for help as your experience and demand grows.

[wofsy]

OK, first off forget the M3, the viewfinder doesn't match the lens/es you intend to use.

 

You don't say which lens you will start with but reading between the lines I'm assuming a 28mm? If so you really want an M4-P, or M6/7/P with a standard 0.72 viewfinder.

 

You could use an M2/4-2/4/5 and shoe mounted finders for wider than 35mm.

 

As for dealers - where are you based? A good starting point would be Leica dealers - if you visit the Leica website you will find a dealer list to find your nearest ones.

 

Then there's a range of specialist used camera dealers to look at, but I would suggest that ideally you buy from a local dealer who you can then return to for help as your experience and demand grows.

 

Thanks James. I live in NYC. I was given a 21mm lens so no M will work. Next is a 35mm

[sblitz]

i bought my m4 and m6 classic at adorama and am not sorry at all. the m4 has been perfect. there were some problems with the m6 which the store took back and sent to leica nj for cla, etc, at no cost to me. the prices were fair based on other prices i have seen on the internet, etc., and i am unwilling to pay a small premium for a store willing to back up what it sells. good guys, and to be clear, i have no affiliation with the store other than giving them too many of my hard earned dollars through the years.

 

just once thing, the m4 was a jump from the m3 and m2 in the modern rewind and fast loading. the m4-2 and m4p were produced in canada and the beginning of the use of zinc instead of brass etc. all the rangefinders are based on the m4, including the m7 -- exception being the addition of electronics (in camera light meter in the m6 and electronic shutter and A mode in the m7). the m7 would be fastest to use and probably most like a digital experience using film instead, and the cost reflects it.

 

as someone above wrote, these are all light boxes that expose film. the key is the film you choose to use and the lens. buy the m4, learn about light, and save your money to spend for the lenses (quality and quantity) -- here is where the difference could be noted in the shot. no one knows, or cares, about the box holding film and lens.

[CalArts 99]

I see quotes for M2's in the $1000 range from reputable dealers .

 

imho, that seems a bit high for the M2. e.g., I had my M4 for sale for $900 (and with a complete service done by DAG just recently) which I think is more than a fair price. There are several M4 bodies out there for sale now at around and under $1000. It appears the market has dropped a bit with film Leicas now.

 

If you are considering spending $1000 then you might think about getting one for less (with some imperfections) and then spend the difference on a full service. A full serviced camera with records is to me more important than one that appears okay and has a dealer's warranty. A dealer's warranty means sending it back to them for a fix and not to the repair person of your choice. Anyway, it's something to consider.

 

I bought a really nice looking M2 some time ago and within a year the finder started to separate. When I bought it (from a reputable dealer with a 6 month warranty) there was no indication of separation and the dealer was honest about it being an 'excellent plus' condition camera. The separation was small at first but then it slowly expanded to where it was rendered useless. Even a knock can start the separation process. So it can be a crap shoot if you'll get separation or not. The M3/M2 finders were cemented with balsam glue that deteriorates. So just be aware.

 

If you get one even with just a 14-day inspection you can then spend some extra on a full service and have a camera that will last for many more years.

 

Good luck in your search. (p.s., Dan Tamarkin in Chicago is also a good source.)

[aesop]

...slightly off-topic, wofsy, but I'm a bit curious as to why a teacher would specifically recommend a film M to a student. What is it you are studying and why a film M?

[TomB_tx]

Good point about buying cheaper and having a good CLA done. Sometimes they are downgraded for "speeds off" - which is corrected in a CLA; so that can be a good deal.

[james.liam]

 

Good luck in your search. (p.s., Dan Tamarkin in Chicago is also a good source.)

 

Tamarkin (formerly of Connecticut and New York before that) is on the high side of the market. Admittedly though, they stock samples in better condition.

[wofsy]

...slightly off-topic, wofsy, but I'm a bit curious as to why a teacher would specifically recommend a film M to a student. What is it you are studying and why a film M?

 

Image quality, and street photography. The lenses, compactness and feel of the camera.

 

Also the excercise of shooting without electronics - and no light meter. Zone focussing.

[wofsy]

Tamarkin (formerly of Connecticut and New York before that) is on the high side of the market. Admittedly though, they stock samples in better condition.

 

How about Sherry Krauter?

[CalArts 99]

How about Sherry Krauter?

 

Sherry is a repair person first and foremost although she does have items for sale. Her prices are on the high side, but I'm assuming they are in good mechanical order and probably have been fully serviced by her. I also assume they're items that she took in initially as repairs.

 

Don't forget to look at what KEH might have in inventory. Like Tamarkin, they offer a 14-day return and 6-month warranty. Their grading is very conservative. But I still wouldn't dismiss private sales (from Leica owners) with an inspection and a good price that allows enough margin for you to get it serviced on your own from Don or Sherry, etc..

[james.liam]

Also in NY City, is Kuland Photo, aka, Leica Store-SoHo. Like Tamarkin, they price at the upper end of the range but the used items they have for sale are in the best of condition. Also really, really nice people to deal with.

 

Adorama's brick and mortar shop is another good place to visit, albeit a busy one and they have quite a large collection of M film bodies of every conceivable kind on display. They are also fastidious at abiding by return warranties and so you're protected.

[wofsy]

Also in NY City, is Kuland Photo, aka, Leica Store-SoHo. Like Tamarkin, they price at the upper end of the range but the used items they have for sale are in the best of condition. Also really, really nice people to deal with.

 

Adorama's brick and mortar shop is another good place to visit, albeit a busy one and they have quite a large collection of M film bodies of every conceivable kind on display. They are also fastidious at abiding by return warranties and so you're protected.

 

Thanks every one. Didn't know about Kuland.

 

With KEH I see no info on the cameras. What does one do ? Buy it then afterwards see if its in good condition?

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[james.liam]

Thanks every one. Didn't know about Kuland.

 

With KEH I see no info on the cameras. What does one do ? Buy it then afterwards see if its in good condition?

 

As mentioned above, KEH has a return policy and they tend to understate the condition (usually in far better shape than listed). In your case, being able to handle one before purchase might be useful. Kurland or Adorama are worthy of a visit time allowing, if only to afford you a chance to handle one in a stated condition as it might be useful for you when & if you order online.