Leica Service- Far from Europe and the USA...

[jaques]

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I placed an order for the M and waited patiently for my dealer to get one. After many months the day finally arrived- I went in and picked it up the afternoon it arrived at my dealer.

 

The camera proved to be faulty on day one with the self timer randomly firing regardless of where the power switch was set to. I hoped this might resolve itself- however it didn't and after a week of use a few other issues were evident.

 

I contacted Leica Australia and was told I have to take the camera to my dealer- who forward it to Camera Clinic in Sydney- who then have to test the camera before sending it to Germany. The representative assured me that they would expedite the repair.... and arrange a loan camera. Neither has happened.

 

I dropped the camera off on the 13th of this month. I just heard on Friday the 27th that the camera was about to be sent to Germany. I only heard this because I asked- I was not contacted by Camera Clinic and when I did contact them they said they could not discuss my camera with me- unless my dealer gave them permission to do so... I arranged for that.... Then I was told the repair will usually take from 60 to 90 days- after it arrives in Germany! There could be additional delays due to customs, etc... no guarantees on anything.

 

I logged into the Leica owners area- and noticed that all the contact details listed for the camera warranty are wrong and out of date- listing Adeal as the repairer and my Australian contact for Leica support. There is no sign of any tracking information - or any way to know what is happening with my gear once it is in Germany. I emailed Leica a week ago and so far only got an automated response.

 

At first I accepted all of this- but now I am thinking this just is not on. I spent a large sum on a camera that did not work correctly out of the box- and which I now do not have. I have no idea when I will get it- however I do know that it will have to be posted all over the world passing through many hands- from my dealer to Camera Clinic (2000+Km)- to Solms- back to Camera Clinic- and then to my dealer.

 

When I do get it back the camera will have traveled twice from Europe to Australia- and twice across Australia- it will have been dissasembled and repaired- and will no longer be a new camera by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps as much as 1/7th of the warranty will be gone- and all before I really have had a chance to use it.

 

Is this the type of service/product one expects from such a high end piece of gear?

 

I have heard many times on this forum of people in Europe or the USA getting repairs done in a matter of days or weeks- and being able to track the progress and speak directly with the Leica people throughout the process. But I have also heard of many customers in Asia/Pacific having to wait for months and months for repairs to be done.

 

Part of me is tempted to ask Leica for a full refund or a brand new camera. I paid for a new camera- with a full warranty- not a repaired camera with partial warranty... I would be more forgiving if my past experiences with repairs for my M8 had't been so terrible- and if I felt confident that the glitch in my camera was unusual and rare. But it seems to me that a very high percentage of M cameras need to be sent back for repair within days or weeks? I am left with a cold feeling when I consider the possible need for repairs after the warranty has expired.... it is bad enough when the camera is in warranty...

 

reading on this forum I can't help get the feeling there are three classes of Leica owner; known (big spending) customers with high profiles in the Leica community that get service as a priority and with a smile- then customers in the US and Europe.... and then everyone else.... Say it ain't so Solms?

 

I debated whether I should post these thoughts on this forum- and I would not have- had I heard from Leica after I sent the camera in. I would have thought they would be eager to ensure I was as happy as possible- and fully informed- and that the matter would be expedited... but that doesn't seem to be happening.

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[Ecar]

Problems with new electronic equipment (this is what cameras are these days) happen - it's a fact of digital life and has nothing to do with the price of the equipment, unfortunately. QC can't test for all possible issues, and this is even before you consider potential problems with transport and handling (you understand this when you see a pallet full of TV screens being unloaded and crashing onto the ground, with no "apparent" damage...). I recently had 3 monitors replaced on a brand new, high-end laptop before they eventually sent me a new machine.

 

That being said, I don't believe some regions get preferential treatment, but it seems to me like the Leica distribution and service organization in Australia needs overhauling... Shipping the camera back and forth by courier should take no more than a week each way. And it should get back as new, with the malfunctioning parts replaced and a full warranty as from the date of the repair.

 

Don't give up - it's a great camera. And while you wait, I'd insist on that loaner...

[pedaes]

jaques- I feel for you, first with bad luck and then appalling service. Surely if the camera didn't work from the outset it should be replaced, not repaired. From what others have said here, Solms are not very good at answering e-mails, but do respond to phone calls.It might be worth investing in a call if European time is ok for you. Good luck with it and you can be confident it will be resolved, and soon forgotten when you get your camera.

[jaques]

thanks for the optimism Ecar, I just wish I shared it. I understand that product failure occurs... within limits- but I would be curious to see Leica's failure rate figures for the new m.... anecdotal reports seem to indicate that for one reason or another a large failure rate. I worry that Leica provides 'works in progress' as finished articles. This may actually be acceptable- if it was marketed as such. But it isn't.

 

certainly The Tyranny of Distance ensures those further from the source of repair fair worse than those closer... but I think it is a worse situation than just that. Last time I sent a camera for repair the Australian agent effectively doubled Leica's charge for their 'handling fee' and we are told by Leica we must send the camera to the local Rep- not to Leica direct- for this 'service' we pay double and add 4 weeks onto the repair time- at least. In Europe folks drop in on Solms- or a Leica store- in the US they have New Jersey, etc...

 

In SE Asia they have Schmidt- read around see how many happy speedy repair stories about Leica service through Schmidt you find.

 

BTW- Leica's service situation has changed here recently- Leica have set up their own management- so we will see if the situation improves.

 

what you say about TV's damaged in transit- is exactly what worries me- my camera must run the gauntlet again- taking unnecessary and extensive detours....

 

I wish I could just send it direct to Germany... actually I wish it just worked.

 

Time will tell- but I do not think- a vague 60 to 90 day estimate is good enough- not for a brand new item of this value- and if it actually takes 90 days... it will miss my 40th bday (it already failed during my brothers wedding) and I will be posting here (with increasing frustration no doubt).

 

I heard once before from Leica that a camera would come back 'like new' with like new warranty. It most definitely didn't happen then though I paid dearly for it. I hope it does now- but others on this forum already suggested that I wouldn't be granted any extension on the warranty?...

 

we shall see...

[k-hawinkler]

Jaques,

 

Why not return a lemon camera outright?

Furthermore, if Leica has worldwide warranty, why not send the camera directly to Solms?

I did with my M9 after it took me too long to figure out what was wrong with it and B&H wasn't taking it back.

It was my first Leica camera ever and back then I was hopelessly clueless!

Not anymore!

 

I have waited since 9/19/2012 for my silver M and ought to be at the top of the dealer's list.

However, I have completely lost confidence in Leica's current ability to deliver a quality product without any issues.

So, I will stay at the top of my dealer's list until Leica gets their act cleaned up!

BTW, I am only on one list.

 

After lots of efforts my M9 is now a robust dependable rangefinder camera that I enjoy using.

Of course, it could break anytime or not at all. If it needs help, I will just have it repaired.

 

Life is good. There are now lots of cameras I can use my Leica/Leitz lenses of M, R, and V type on.

For example NEX-5N, NEX-7, OM-D E-M5, and as of this coming Monday an OM-D E-M1.

Rumor has it that soon there will be for sale an FF NEX camera or two.

That camera ought to be great for using my Leica R lenses on with a full featured EVF.

 

I wish you better luck with getting a correctly working M soon.

In your situation I would present the case via email to CS Solms and follow up with a phone call.

[k-hawinkler]

BTW, I forgot to mention the Phigmenttech adapter for NEX cameras that I got a few days ago.

That adapter, among other features, automatically switches on magnification when it detects focusing of an M lens. Paul Habsch, the creator of that technology, did an excellent job and is also extremely customer focused. I am now using Firmware version 3 without any issues on my APS-C NEX cameras.

[wattsie]

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Jacques

 

That's bad news. The law in Australia basically requires a product which is sold and not fit for purpose to be replaced. That said, it's a bit harder to achieve when the product itself is in limited supply. I think Leica should take it back, and deliver you the next available one off the line.

[jaques]

Thanks for the commiseration chaps ;-) I feel slightly better... The main reason I didn't send it direct to Solms was because they told me not too. They say you should contact your local dealer and/or Australian Leica- who then say take it to the dealer.

 

I think I might contact Leica Australia to discuss getting a replacement rather than a repair. I don't feel great about having a repaired camera straight off the bat so to speak- and having to wait 3 months to boot. I already waited 9 months to get the camera in the first place...

 

I would be dealing with this better if I didn't have to also send in my m9 to get the RF calibrated... no word on when that will be done either even though they can do that here. I just noticed that another European LF member sent in their M for repair a few days after I sent mine- they already have it back I think. I doubt I will touch another M for months.... but hope springs eternal as they say...

[jaapv]

thanks for the optimism Ecar, I just wish I shared it. I understand that product failure occurs... within limits- but I would be curious to see Leica's failure rate figures for the new m.... anecdotal reports seem to indicate that for one reason or another a large failure rate

I am genuinely puzzled by that conclusion. I have been on this forum a long time and have been through the early M8 and M9 periods. The number of complaint threads and more importantly the severity of the issues is a magnitude less this time around. Even with a minor part failure in mine (the LCD developed some kind of moire) I can testify that it gives a sense of solidity and dependability. I suppose you are -understandably- generalizing from your own unfortunate experience which appears to be handled rather badly. There are clearly cameras around for replacement rather than repair. Leica even found enough spare ones to start a rental service.

[sc_rufctr]

To the OP.

 

I'm sympathetic but if the camera was faulty out of the box you should have returned it immediately.

Under Australian law you are entitled to either a replacment or refund. End of story.

 

I hope it works out well.

 

FWIW: Leica are opening a Leica service centre in Australia very soon, just like the service centres in the US. I know that doesn't help you know but things should be better in the future.

[jaques]

well yes- it turns out I should have returned the camera immediately. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

 

The problem at the time was I was not sure if the problem was user error- a feature of the new camera I had missed or what? I have not seen another report of this particular issue. Then I was sick and didn't use the camera for a week. When I was sure the issue was a malfunction that did not go away I did return it after just 20 days... it then turns out Leica would only accept a complete replacement return after 14 days...

 

To Update: Just today finally I was able to pick the camera back up... I took it home- put in the battery- took two shots- then THIRD SHOT THE F@$!$%#@ Self Timer starts again... And the camera is on S Mode!!

 

Not only that: I attached my new/old Biotar 85mm 1.4 lens and turned on LV. The camera said: "No Lens Attached". I turned it off and on- and then it LV worked. I turned on focus peaking and tried to focus: No Peaking! Is this normal? Does peaking only work with M lenses??

 

I am so F!$@Q%^$^*^& angry!

 

I had a feeling this would happen. When I spoke to Leica Solms they said their techs had not been able to replicate the issue. I asked them to be thorough in their checking as I did not want a camera that 'fixed itself'. I also had a feeling they didn't 100% believe me...

 

I was concerned I would get it back and it would happen again.... BUt after just 3 shots!!!! WTF!!!!!

 

I can think of two possibilities: either the camera only works correctly in the Northern Hemisphere or somehow the battery is responsible. I can't see how that is possible- but what else can it be! When I sent the camera back I only sent the body- as it is against the law in Australia to post batteries that have any charge in them.

 

Does anyone have any idea what could be causing the self timer to fire when the camera is set to S (single shot) mode?

 

I definitely want a new camera now- this is well beyond acceptable having spent 8000USD (yes we pay more for the same camera in Australia- and get slower service as a thankyou). I just waited months to get this camera back and for what!!! I cannot rely on it- at all. And I don't want a camera in another 3 months from now- that has been in for repairs twice after a total of 21 days of very light use.

[jaques]

There are clearly cameras around for replacement rather than repair. Leica even found enough spare ones to start a rental service.

 

Unfortunately I am not so sure about that Jaap: even quite some time after you wrote it- I just this minute spoke to my dealer - the last M they got was in early November- they have 10 more on order- and checking on the Leica system he says that out of the 10 authorised Leica dealers in Australia there is a total of 110 black cameras currently on back order.... (not sure how many silver) So even if Leica do agree to replace it may take months for it to happen:(

 

Now I am not going to get totally outraged- until I see what Leica have to say... but right now I am seriously considering switching over to Sony- much as I love the M rangefinders.

 

The horrible thing is I just sold my M9-P- which never had a single issue. I am begingning to wonder if I should have skipped over the M240 altogether. By the time I get a working one Leica will probably have released a new model...

[sc_rufctr]

Jaques, First things first...

 

What SD card are you using? Is it brand new and formatted correctly using your M240? (not your PC/LT) ... Have you tried another card!

 

Does you M240 have the latest firearm? That's probably is a stupid question considering it's been back to Solmes.

 

Is there a way to reset the camera to factory defaults? (Within the menu there usually is but I don't own an M240)

 

Do you have a standard Leica lens with coding to try?

 

Have you completely drained and recharged the battery using the charger? (I'm assuming you can do this using the supplied charger but again I don't own an M240)

 

------------------------------------------

 

I really am sympathetic. I can't imagine how it would feel to spend so much on a camera and it not work properly out of the box.

[MarkP]

Jaques

 

I've just sent you a pm

 

Regards,

Mark

[jaques]

1: SD card is not brand new- but why should it have to be? I formatted it in the camera. In any case the same issue occurred using different cards: and I fail to see why a bad card should cause the self timer to fire in S mode?? All my cards worked perfect in my M9-p...

 

2: Latest Firmware installed at Solms

 

3: Resetting to factory default didn't help before- I doubt it would now. I will try but I fail to see how that could be a cause- and if it is- how it could be acceptable

 

4: This occurred with my coded Noctilux. Again I should be able to use any lens: coded or uncoded. I only have the one coded lens...

 

5: I drained the battery through use when I first got the camera. I don't know how to drain it using the charger? In any case the issue occurred at all states of charge: and I don't see why a dodgy battery should even be able to start the self timer?

 

Finally: should I really have to worry about any of these issues causing the self timer to actuate when it shouldn't? And if I did: would that be acceptable? I have seen many people here assume that if the camera has an issue the first place to look is the SD card... I wonder why that is? The camera should be able to work with all halfway decent SD cards. An in-card write failure I can understand- or a slow faulty card- but the card should not be able to affect the cameras functions?

 

I will try with another freshly formatted card- but even if the issue went away- I would not be at all sure the card had anything to do with it whatsoever.

 

I have now fired off another 20 shots and no unwanted self timer... but I no longer trust this camera. This is what happened last time: the issue occurred in the first few days... then it went away for a while and I thought all was good: it fixed itself. By the time it happened again: I had gone past the 14 window for a replacement camera. At this stage even if it didn't happen for another 3 months I could never be sure it wouldn't happen again at any time... like in the first 20 days: it happened at my brothers wedding at the exact exchange the ring and kiss moment: and I got no decent shots of that- I was too busy looking at the camera and thinking 'WTF is going on'?. I want a camera I can trust: and I don't want to have to be trying all types of sd card, firmware and formatting tricks to make it work: I am not a camera technician- at $8000 it should just work.

[NZDavid]

Service time New Zealand to Solms (X1 a few years ago) proved to be three months, on two occasions. It does indeed seem that service in other parts of the globe is much much faster.

[hoppyman]

I'll start by saying that my M (typ 240) is in fact in Germany for repair right now because I dropped it. Of course waiting is frustrating. You can choose to deal directly with Solms certainly or bypass your dealer and send to Camera Clinic first. Your dealer of course would be doing the shipping for you and you would not be paying for that or insurance in that case.

 

Yes there are extra time penalties for getting Leica equipment repaired from here. Only some are controllable. Customs (both ends) can certainly bite you too.

 

The local authorised agent, Camera Clinic is authorised to and does perform more work than before on some equipment. As far as I know everything on the M needs a trip to Germany currently.

 

I am really puzzled by the intermittent fault that you are reporting. Are you certain that inadvertent movement of the release mode selector hasn't happened? I don't follow why it would happen and then not reappear for months.

 

I can comment from my own experience that the more important the subject the more likely I am to bump a setting dial to a wrong setting in handling where it should be un-bumpable and lose frames. I did this twice only yesterday with another camera and still don't know how I could unlock and move a mode dial by accident -twice!

 

I don't recall this fault you are describing being reported or discussed by anyone in the Forum before (I haven't searched that, just my recollection)

[jaques]

Perhaps you are trying to help me here Hoppy... but you have managed to patronise me instead- whether you intended to or no. I am sorry but I have to respond thusly:

 

I can guarantee you 100% that this is not a matter of me accidentally turning the power dial all the way from S mode- over to timer mode- and then accidentally returning it to the correct position before I have time to look down at it. And this is not a thing that disappears for months- did you even read the thread? So far I have only been able to use the camera for 21 days out of the 3.5 months I have owned it (the rest of the time it has been in transit or being (not)repaired- and the problem has occurred multiple times during that brief 21 day period.

 

What really puzzles me is people who go out of their way to try and explain obvious camera faults as user errors or card problems despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary... I have owned the m8, m9 and m9-p and know how these cameras are supposed to work. My M240 has a serious problem- I didn't send it back to Solms and wait 3 months because I don't know how to use it- and can't keep the dial where I want it... I sent it back because it is faulty: on its return I am horrified to find the fault still there: on the third test shot I took. That you haven't heard of the problem before, or can't imagine what could cause it: mean entirely absolutely nothing to me. I wouldn't expect a user to understand what might cause a fault in a complex device, and I don't think for a problem to be believable or credible- it has to be widespread and well known.

 

Basically I will only say this once more: my self timer randomly fires when the camera is set to S mode!

 

I have just about had it with Leica (and what I see as the dismissive attitudes of some Leica apologists on this forum) - I am now going to ask for a new camera or a full refund. I will not accept sending back to Solms again for another go at a fix. I will be honest here: your post has hardened my position.

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[sc_rufctr]

jaques

 

What's the problem? These people are trying to help you.

[jaques]

The problem is knee-jerk defense of the indefensible without regard to the facts. The problem is a default position that assumes users are likely at fault- rather than a brand in which you have invested heavily both financially and emotionally. The problem is assuming others are incapable of understanding even the most basic aspects of using their cameras- before entertaining the possibility that their camera actually is faulty... etc.

 

I have had problems I have experienced with Leica products and Leica support belittled on this forum (albeit it in a passive aggressive polite manner) enough times that I am heartily sick of it. I am not an enemy of Leica: I am a Leica user and Leicaphile. I have over 30 Leica lenses and have invested heavily in Leica digital bodies despite all their many flaws. However my love of Leica does not mean I can accept defective merchandise or appallingly slow defective service and just keep quiet about it. I actually think to do so would be a disservice to Leica and its fine heritage. I also believe to try and minimise, deny or deflect justifiable criticism of Leica is a disservice to the company.