Reasons not to buy the Digital M?

[marknorton]

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I think Andy is being conservative with his second hand values in making his case.

 

Will an M7 be worth $2700 in 3 years time? No chance, ebay will be awash with them as the flight from film continues. Will an M8 be worth only $1000? If Leica have come out with a follow-on product by then, maybe. If not, they will be the current digital rangefinder body from Leica and they will be worth that $2700. A new rangefinder body in 3 years? What do you think?

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[lct]

We know that good 10 megapixel DSLRs won't cost more than $ 1,000 already.

See the last Sony and the next Nikon D80.

It is then difficult to imagine how any 10 mp camera could cost $ 4,000 or more in 3 years...

[marknorton]

Mega-pixels is not the only measure of quality. I can't mount my 28mm Summicron on a Sony whatever it is.

[lct]

No but you could put your Summicron on a digital ZI using a Sony sensor, Mark.

Leica will not be very long the only player with Epson i'm afraid.

[marknorton]

Zeiss might well be putting a digital rangefinder together, especially since being a supplier of IP to Sony, there may be a reciprocal agreement to give them access to Sony sensors. Zeiss also has a track record of shouting about new products from the roof-tops but I'm not hearing anything.

[hamey]

$250 a month on film, "WOW" thats what I spend in one year on my slide films.

 

After 3 years

M7=less depreciated value (resale) $2,700.

M8= less depreciated value (resale) $1000.

 

Whats the real value of Film, only that it's REAL the image speaks for it's self it's priceless and for keeps and thats the real investment.

 

Electronic imaging is that, and nothing else unless you convert it onto paper print, to me it's not worth a cracker.

 

Like the classic line from the Maltese Falcon,It's a fake I tell you it's a fake.

 

Oh yes, here in Melbourne a Leica M3 has a higher resale value then any S/H Canon DSLR, THATS NOT TO BAD FOR 50 YEAR OLD CAMERA, and you can still use and buy film for it.

 

I hope, you will be able to buy memory cards for the M8 in 20 years.

Latest talk is that the Flash card might be on the way out.

 

Film Negative or tranparances is like cash it's there you can see it and you can hold it and talk turkey.

 

Electronic imaging is like a cheque, not worth anything untill the banks or electronic machines process it

 

It's your Money

 

Cheers.

[humanized_form]

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i believe i read somewhere that Epson didn't even sell out the initial 10,000 unit run of the RD-1 and that the RD-1S is simply the leftovers with a firmware upgrade. if this is true, why would any company (besides Leica which has always been about rangefinders) justify the research and development costs to manufacture a digital rangefinder, knowing in advance that it will interest only a very limited marketplace? would zeiss make a digital rangefinder to sell ...what... maybe 5000 cameras worldwide? could they recoup their manufacturing and development costs, or even make a profit? nevermind the fact that all of the digital rangefinders would be competing for the same limited market.

 

i love rangefinders, but i had little interest in buying the Epson, as it just seemed kind of flaky and a compromise. the Leica Digital M is a whole different thing, it's still a compromise, but i will buy one because i use an M7 and i trust Leica to do this right. i think this is maybe my last best hope for a digital camera that doesn't feel like a computer, which is pretty much how all the dslrs seem to me.

[adan]

$250 a month on film, "WOW" thats what I spend in one year on my slide films.

.....

 

Film Negative or tranparances is like cash it's there you can see it and you can hold it and talk turkey.

 

Electronic imaging is like a cheque, not worth anything untill the banks or electronic machines process it

 

Interesting analogy. Are your retirement savings in cash under the mattress - or stored as electronic data in some fund or annuity computer? (rhetorical question, not prying into your personal finances!)

 

"$250 a month" - yep, although it was a rough estimate. More detail:

 

10 rolls Kodak 100/400UC @ $5.75 per roll = $57.50

10 rolls Fuji Velvia 100F @ $8.95 each = $89.50

15 rolls Ilford Pan F @ $5.15 each = $77.25

 

Processing:

 

10 rolls C-41 processed myself (film only) $20.00 for chemistry + $90.00 for my time (3 hours total at $30.00 per hour) = $120.00

 

10 rolls E6 via lab - $82.50 plus 50 minutes travel to/from lab plus gas = $110

 

15 rolls B&W processed myself - $15 for developer, $5 for the other chemicals, 4 hours time = $140

 

Total: $594.25 - looks like I was off by a factor of 2 (man, those hidden expenses can kill). Guess if I work for free, and hitch-hike to/from the lab and photo supply stores, the original estimate was close.

 

It's true if I shot fewer pictures, I could save money.

 

Maybe if I never took any pictures at all, I could make a profit! Now THERE'S a good argument for buying a camera!

[adan]

As to a mythical Zeiss-Ikon digital - this would be from the company that announced an 85mm f/2.0 at almost the same price as the Leica 90 f/2 - and then had to go back to the drawing board (or computer screen) to redesign it? Still not on the market.

 

Sure, Zeiss might someday sell a digital RF. Epson might someday upgrade the R-D1 to 10+ mPixels. Heck, someday Canon might get a wild hair and offer an RF based on the 5D.

 

Until 'someday' comes - the M8 for me!

[marknorton]

As usual, Andy is talking a lot of sense.

[lambroving]

Mark,

 

I'm on the same page as Ken. I'm an amateur and frankly prefer the look of film. I usually have a high hit rate with Leicas (except last week) and don't burn a lot of film. Processing and commercial hi-res. scanning costs here locally are a fraction of what they are in the U.K. I'm also not into instant gratification

 

As Brent indicated, a pro at this point has no choice. While YOU can change your ISO "on-the-fly", WE can change our filmware! I live on a computer 9 - 11 hours/day. The less I need to do on a PC, the better... Photography with a Leica M ought to be simple and straightforward. Usually it is.

 

The big question is knowing when to use which medium for pictorial effect. One does not replace the other.

 

Good shooting with your new toys when you get them. Where are you in Gloucestershire, BTW, and do you have a website?

[marknorton]

Well there will always be a spectrum of opinion which is good.

 

My Leica glass stood on the shelf for years after I gave up using film - nothing to do with cost of film which I cannot comment on because I have no idea. The Epson R-D1 has put that glass back into use and the M8 will take things further.

 

What I do know is that Leica cannot survive as an independent camera maker without this move to digital. The small amount of new business which film users bring is not enough to pay the bills. Nikon have made it clear: no more film cameras, the F6 is the last of the line and I expect the M7 and MP are the same for Leica. Leica has a new management team and the message is clear from what I have read: there's money to do digital right and for sport optics and that is it. If there's any appetite to do anything new with film, I doubt the business case stacks up.

 

I'm really pleased that the M8 is coming because it's the best chance Leica have of surviving as we know them. Leading edge designs, highest quality fabrication and support. It's not a certainty but it's the best chance they have and I am more than happy to support that effort to the limit of what is reasonable for me as a private individual.