barjohn Posted August 22, 2013 Share #21 Posted August 22, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have just completed shooting 135 test shots (270 images) testing auto focus and white balance. With the camera tripod mounted and shooting all the way down to 1/4sec, only 1 image was slightly soft and one showed camera shake probably caused by me when I pressed the shutter release. Every other images as tack sharp. My test images were a test pattern, a head shot of my wife and a friend, another test image and a group of objects to test for 3-D focusing. I used every AF method from facial recognition to spot. They all focused equally well though some were faster than others. I tested at all 4 focal lengths to make sure it wasn't focal length related. The blank grey wall test using natural window light with the wall defocused at each focal length illustrated erratic WB behavior and that is evident in the test shots of the blank walls and the black & white test chart. On shooting the color images, the erratic WB behavior seems to disappear. I'm not sure why. WB was easily corrected by selecting auto in LR for both JPGs and DNGs. Lastly, I discovered that the files contain corrective information for both RAW and JPG that LR applies without telling you or allowing you to turn off if you choose. Loading the same files into Iridient Developer allows one to turn off lens correction for the XV profile and it becomes apparent that the lens suffers from moderate to very mild barrel distortion running from wide to tele. This was a surprising finding given the Peter Karbe interview and his statement about their design goals. At least that is what I am seeing. Looking at the shots of the test chart one can see that corner resolution is very good. The JPGs on my DropBox folder have the in camera settings for sharpness and contrast and they are Sharpness "high", saturation "Standard" and Contrast "Medium High". Image stabilization was set to "ON". The DNGs are as they came from the camera. The test shots can be viewed and down loaded from the following link Many files are still uploading and it may be a while before all of the files are available. The EXIF data should be intact with all of the information on each file. By the way when I tried some of the same shots hand held at 1/30 sec I had a few mis focused shots. I will explore this a little further as it makes me wonder if the image stabilization being "ON" is helping or hindering. I have shot many shots at even 1/15th hand held that were sharp and I don't use burst mode shooting. I am open to suggestions and tests besides the ones I have conducted so far but I am starting to conclude that the AF, while moderate in performance appears to be very accurate if the platform is stable enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 Hi barjohn, Take a look here Issues with New X Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest badbob Posted August 22, 2013 Share #22 Posted August 22, 2013 By the way when I tried some of the same shots hand held at 1/30 sec I had a few mis focused shots. I will explore this a little further as it makes me wonder if the image stabilization being "ON" is helping or hindering. I have shot many shots at even 1/15th hand held that were sharp and I don't use burst mode shooting. I turned the stabilizer off since I assumed it was the same as the X1, which I did test to see how it worked. With stabilizer off you shouldn't get sharp images at 1/15 except rarely, no matter how steady you are. If you're getting mostly sharp images at 1/15 handheld with the stabilizer on, that's very interesting since it's not the lens shift or sensor shift type. It would be most interesting to compare JPEGs done with the stabilizer on and off, with the camera fully supported at least when the stabilizer is off. On I can't say since we all know you shouldn't have conventional VR/IS on when the camera is supported (tripod etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted August 22, 2013 Share #23 Posted August 22, 2013 We're right here. You're probably at the local camera shop wishing you had enough money to buy an XVario Oh boy, what a cheap shot. Behave, or else I`m going to show you my Lecia M (I mean the real M) collection, film and digital. What an insecure crowd these XV owners. Leica can`t be criticized enough for wasting limited resources to develop and manufacture a camera as irrelevant as the XV. They should re-focus and making cameras which really matter and set new benchmarks again, as the X1 and M9 did. If XV owners want to take my critique of camera and manufacturer personal, be my guest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted August 22, 2013 Share #24 Posted August 22, 2013 And where is the "hurrah a XV" crowd from the other day now? Down at the friendly neighborhood Leica dealer, trading in their XV for an M6? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 22, 2013 Share #25 Posted August 22, 2013 Here are two shots at roughly 50mm hand held arms out at 1/15th f/5.0 spot focused. One with stabilization on and one with it off. Followed by a side-by-side comparison at 100%. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/211136-issues-with-new-x-vario/?do=findComment&comment=2402796'>More sharing options...
satijntje Posted August 22, 2013 Share #26 Posted August 22, 2013 Hi, thanks a lot John for this exercise! For your last posting, the 2 bottom pics, is the stabilizer on on the left or on the right pic? gr another John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 22, 2013 Share #27 Posted August 22, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh boy, what a cheap shot. Behave, or else I`m going to show you my Lecia M (I mean the real M) collection, film and digital. What an insecure crowd these XV owners. Leica can`t be criticized enough for wasting limited resources to develop and manufacture a camera as irrelevant as the XV. They should re-focus and making cameras which really matter and set new benchmarks again, as the X1 and M9 did. If XV owners want to take my critique of camera and manufacturer personal, be my guest. I bought the X Vario a month ago, and the M Monochrom this week. Both good cameras, very different. The X Vario is still a good deal for $2850 U.S. given a high quality vario lens on a nearly full-size Leica body. The M's with a couple lenses are way beyond that price level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted August 22, 2013 Share #28 Posted August 22, 2013 John - With other camera one has the choice of two IS settings with one on all the time and one on just as the photographer presses the shutter button. Theoretically the "always on" setting is potentially less effective since at the moment one shoots the IS might be at one end or the other of its travel. Does the XV have two IS settings? If so perhaps you need the setting that is not always on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 22, 2013 Share #29 Posted August 22, 2013 There is only one IS setting, either on or off. The way the IS works is two take two shots quickly and pick the best of the two so only one is shown. It is not true IS where a lens element is moved or the sensor is shifted. There is no mechanical action so tripod or no tripod really isn't the issue either. You can do the same thing by having it shoot in continuous and shooting two or more images and only keeping the best but you have to do the work. The other problem I have observed is that IS only works in a very limited set of conditions. In the images above number 869 was with it on and 870 with it off but I'm not sure the IS actually did anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted August 22, 2013 Share #30 Posted August 22, 2013 Not really, I understand, when I read the instructions. It combines, does not choose the best. Quote: The Leica X Vario provides a function that normally results in sharp pictures even with very slow shutter speeds: Select Image Stabilization in the menu, and the desired setting in the submenu Notes: • With this function, the camera automatically takes two pictures in succession (the shutter noise can be heard twice). It then combines the pictures into one by digital processing. • Hold the camera steady until after the shutter is released the second time. • As the function uses two exposures, it can only be used for static subjects. • Image stabilization is only possible with shutter speeds in the range from 1/4s to 1/30s and sensitivities up to ISO 1600. So, use of the IS when not necessary, may very well combine two sharp pictures into one botched up combo-picture. This may lay at the root of many of problems described in this thread. Better to switch of this mode IMHO. I gave a X Vario to my partner. He is a careful picture taker and the results are fine. With all metering modes. When treated for what it is, and not like a Nikon D4, its produce is wonderful. Colors a little subdued v.a.v. my M9, but the DNG are totally manageable. Love the camera, when I'm lazy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 22, 2013 Share #31 Posted August 22, 2013 What an insecure crowd these XV owners. Don't judge all of us by the comments of one person. I also felt the comment was inappropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 22, 2013 Share #32 Posted August 22, 2013 If it actually combines the two images it is probably not worth much as the processing required to selectivelypick the focus areas from the out of focus areas without creating a mess is substantial. It seems like off may be the best bet based on that explanation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Holy Moly Posted August 22, 2013 Share #33 Posted August 22, 2013 it's like 'unsharp masking' in the dark room: Unsharp masking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 22, 2013 Share #34 Posted August 22, 2013 I've just gone out and done some testing of my own. My conclusion is that the unsharpness I was experiencing was due to leaving IS on for all situations, so thanks to Vanhulsenbeek for identifying that problem. When shooting with IS off, the images all come out sharp. One additional conclusion is that the IS in this camera is useless--even used properly at slow shutter speeds. Perhaps a firmware upgrade will improve it, but I don't have my hopes up. For my shooting, I will just leave IS turned off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted August 22, 2013 Share #35 Posted August 22, 2013 There is only one IS setting, either on or off. The way the IS works is two take two shots quickly and pick the best of the two so only one is shown. It is not true IS .... This is clearly different compared with the X1. Once selected, it only becomes operational at shutter speed equal to or longer than 1/30 second. It combines two shots, one very under-exposed, to produce a sharper image. It is really designed as a modest help in low-light situations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2013 Share #36 Posted August 22, 2013 Meine bisher weit über 1.000 gesichteten Bildergebnissen relativieren die hier gezeigten "WB"- und "AF" Fuzzys. Ich schätze die Quote auf höchstens 3%, davon 2/3 Userbedingte Fehlschüsse. (wird auch bei Kameras anderer Hersteller in etwa gleich sein) Die Beiträge sind allenfalls dazu geeignet Verunsicherung und Irritationen zu verbreiten. Wie ist das nochmals mit Hypochondern? Hinter jeder Wahrnehmung, und sei sie noch so klein, vermuten sie ein/das "never ending problem". Zum Interview mit Peter Karbe: Sinngemäß interpretiere ich seine Aussagen dahingehend, das neue Objektiv möglichst am optimal Machbaren auszurichten und das sind nie 100%. Er belegt dies auch mit dem Hinweis auf die Anfangsblenden f 3,5/28mm bis f 6,4/70mm. Ebenfalls wurden Eckdaten aus dem Lastenheft, wenn auch pauschal, angesprochen. Mehr kann man nicht erwarten, andernfalls könnte Leica ja gleich Blaupausen veröffentlichen. Leica hat Fotogeschichte geschrieben und das führt eben auch dazu, dass Sie besonders kritisch beäugt und beurteilt werden. Dagegen ist grundsätzlich nichts einzuwenden, doch leider wird alles nur noch am mehr, besser, schneller, perfekter usw. gemessen, oft genug zu Lasten der Qualität und ohne Rücksicht auf Verluste durch permanente und kurzfristige Modellwechsel. (von 1 auf 100 ist in angemessener zeit machbar, 100 x 100 vorstellbar, 10.000 x 10.000? usw ???) Nochmals zu Peter Karbe: Seine Brücke zum Sport, hier Fünfkampf, zeigt nochmals deutlich, dass nie 100% der Einzeldisziplinen erreicht werden können, das Machbar und Erreichte aus allen fünf Einzeldisziplinen zählt. Leica insgesamt ist auch mannschaftssportlich zu sehen, d.h. die Leistung der Gesamtmannschaft muß passen um im Wettbewerb weiterhin bestehen zu können und dazu wünsche ich weiterhin viel Erfolg. mbg kmhb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelbrenner Posted August 22, 2013 Share #37 Posted August 22, 2013 The stabilized shot really brings out the 3-D quality Leica has to offer in its images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelbrenner Posted August 22, 2013 Share #38 Posted August 22, 2013 Meine bisher weit über 1.000 gesichteten Bildergebnissen relativieren die hier gezeigten "WB"- und "AF" Fuzzys. Ich schätze die Quote auf höchstens 3%, davon 2/3 Userbedingte Fehlschüsse. (wird auch bei Kameras anderer Hersteller in etwa gleich sein) Die Beiträge sind allenfalls dazu geeignet Verunsicherung und Irritationen zu verbreiten. Wie ist das nochmals mit Hypochondern? Hinter jeder Wahrnehmung, und sei sie noch so klein, vermuten sie ein/das "never ending problem". Zum Interview mit Peter Karbe: Sinngemäß interpretiere ich seine Aussagen dahingehend, das neue Objektiv möglichst am optimal Machbaren auszurichten und das sind nie 100%. Er belegt dies auch mit dem Hinweis auf die Anfangsblenden f 3,5/28mm bis f 6,4/70mm. Ebenfalls wurden Eckdaten aus dem Lastenheft, wenn auch pauschal, angesprochen. Mehr kann man nicht erwarten, andernfalls könnte Leica ja gleich Blaupausen veröffentlichen. Leica hat Fotogeschichte geschrieben und das führt eben auch dazu, dass Sie besonders kritisch beäugt und beurteilt werden. Dagegen ist grundsätzlich nichts einzuwenden, doch leider wird alles nur noch am mehr, besser, schneller, perfekter usw. gemessen, oft genug zu Lasten der Qualität und ohne Rücksicht auf Verluste durch permanente und kurzfristige Modellwechsel. (von 1 auf 100 ist in angemessener zeit machbar, 100 x 100 vorstellbar, 10.000 x 10.000? usw ???) Nochmals zu Peter Karbe: Seine Brücke zum Sport, hier Fünfkampf, zeigt nochmals deutlich, dass nie 100% der Einzeldisziplinen erreicht werden können, das Machbar und Erreichte aus allen fünf Einzeldisziplinen zählt. Leica insgesamt ist auch mannschaftssportlich zu sehen, d.h. die Leistung der Gesamtmannschaft muß passen um im Wettbewerb weiterhin bestehen zu können und dazu wünsche ich weiterhin viel Erfolg. mbg kmhb I put this through the Google translator but am still unsure of your point - can you post in English please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted August 22, 2013 Share #39 Posted August 22, 2013 I've just gone out and done some testing of my own. My conclusion is that the unsharpness I was experiencing was due to leaving IS on for all situations, so thanks to Vanhulsenbeek for identifying that problem. When shooting with IS off, the images all come out sharp. One additional conclusion is that the IS in this camera is useless--even used properly at slow shutter speeds. Perhaps a firmware upgrade will improve it, but I don't have my hopes up. For my shooting, I will just leave IS turned off. Strange, this is the opposite observation that BarJohn made in his post with the 3 pics. The left pic was with IS off and unsharp, and the right one was with the IS on and sharp. Now you are saying that the IS brings blurr into the image..... I will try tomorrow to find some time to do some shooting John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted August 22, 2013 Share #40 Posted August 22, 2013 Both of you are right I think Barjohn's picture were taken at 1/15 Sec. The left picture is probably unsharp because of camerashake by button push. Picture 869 is sharp because the IS worked well at the speed it is designed for. Fotografr is referring to leaving the IS at all times. That is clearly not what it is designed for, and then it may cause unsharpness. What is not clear to me from the instructions is what happens when faster shutter speeds > 1/30 sec. are used; is the IS working or disabled by the firmware? Only the firmware writers will know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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