Digital projector

[leica dream]

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I have decided that my transparency projector is no longer viable (Aldis 505 circa 1960), and anyway, trying to get a valve type 500w bulb would be a challenge anyway.

I have decided to move to a digital projector and convert my old transparencies to join my mounting collection of digital images from my Leica.

Problem is which projector. I give talks about orchids on a borrowed modern slide device, so I now need a digital device which displays ACCURATE colours and contrasts, so have been considering LCD types.

Being a pensioner I do not want to break the bank, so have been looking at some mid-range EPSONs (max £500).

Does anyone have pros/cons from their experience?

Grateful for any input - good and bad.

Richard

[sanyasi]

I am not sure what you mean by a digital projector. Are you thinking in terms of a flat screen monitor? Your reference to LCD suggests so, but there have long been projectors that you can hang from the ceiling or put on a table that do project an image on a screen.

[masjah]

Richard, I do not use a digital projector, but, when I have seen projected images from digital projectors costing "only" in the several hundreds of pounds range, the results, compared with say a Pradovit, have been frankly dreadful.

 

So I simply pose the question, are you absolutely sure that you wish to give up projecting slides directly. You could get a superb later model Pradovit for less than the cost of a cheap digital projector.

 

Can I ask where you are based?

[leica dream]

John.

I am based near Newark, UK.

I agree totally with your view about quality. Having moved from film to digital images I spent a long time researching whether I should change my projector. If I stay with superb transparencies (the quality which I agree cannot be surpassed) I needed to find a way of converting my more recent digital images into celluloid. I did, in fact, find two processors in the UK which would do that for me but the cost was not sustainable and I did not go as far as arranging test samples to verify colour accuracy. I then considered the longevity of that process availability in the light of a move generally to digital.

This has been a really hard decision for me. I love the quality of my Leica digital images and just want to find an economically acceptable way to share those to groups in village halls etc.

Sadly, technology moves forward very fast so I feel the time is right (for me at least) to make a step change into the modern world.

I therefore have to find an acceptable balance between quality and affordability.

Richard

[leica dream]

Sanyasi

No, I am not thinking about a flat screen, but a portable projector. My research shows me that there are four different illumination techniques for these projectors....

"DLP" which gives vivid but not always accurate colours.

"LED" which has long life but not as bright as others.

"LCOS" which is better than DLP but considerably more expensive.

"3LCD" which projects generally accurate colours and skin tones.

The differences and performance hare reviewed in several places on the web.

What a mine field for a rank amateur!

Richard

[tobey bilek]

A digital projector has very small files like 1 meg. The image looks good from 20 feet.

 

I have seen them in conference rooms and the image looks like a bunch of stair steps.

 

Anything approaching decent is multi thousands of dollars.

 

Leica offered one at $12,000 USD , but I have never seen a test report. Not even sure if available.

 

If you want sharp contrasty with smooth tonal transitions in your images images, consider only the best. The $1000 machine will not make it.

 

To do a digital conversion of slides, I made a slide copier. Copy stand, suspended glass to hold the slide, flash under . You must mask off all non image areas. You probably will need some color filtration. Once established, it will be the same for all slides from one film. Nikons have some color correction built in for magenta green & blue yellow that in user controllable . With Leica all there is is blue yellow or custom setting for which you need a grey slide. Leica has primitive electronics when you get to scientific work.

 

Scanning will not be good unless you do a drum scanner.

 

A local Frys Electronics has a display of various types of projectors.

[leica dream]

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Thank you Tobey.

I have digitised transparencies very successfully using my Epson V700 PHOTO scanner so that is not the problem for me.

What I would dearly like to be able to do is transfer images to Transparencies so I can continue to use transparency projection - Possible but that is a costly professional job.

Richard

[wda]

Richard, I sympathise with your dilemma. The Leica Fellowship faced this question and managed to find a loan arrangement with a good moderately priced digital projector. But side-by-side comparison showed how superior film slides are. The only acceptable digital projector I have seen in use is the current (and only?) Leica D-1200 which gave stunning results. But at a price! In fact I couldn't find it listed on the Leica Mayfair website. Look around for a benevolent benefactor . As I said I sympathise with you but cannot see a budget projector meeting your requirement at present.

[leica dream]

Thanks.

I am getting a lot of sympathy on this one, but frustratingly it seems that I am hunting for the Holy Grail which goes contra to the entire ethos of a Leica user where only second best is available.

I checked the web for the Leica you mentioned and it stated out of production. Maybe, as you say, I might be able to pick up a pre-owned instrument.

Richard

[stuny]

Richard -

 

Making your quest even more difficult is your need for portability. Offhand I see no way out of that problem yet. However, perhaps there is still a chance. Do some research of audio-visual equipment supply firms in London, ask your questions of them, and then visit them on your next trip to London to see deomonstrations.

[mmradman]

Thanks.

I am getting a lot of sympathy on this one, but frustratingly it seems that I am hunting for the Holy Grail which goes contra to the entire ethos of a Leica user where only second best is available.

I checked the web for the Leica you mentioned and it stated out of production. Maybe, as you say, I might be able to pick up a pre-owned instrument.

Richard

 

I would also check cost & availability of light bulbs for the target digital projector, some of the lamps can be mega expensive.

Interesting thread, brave new world of digital photography actually doesn't provide affordable equivalent to projected slide only feeble thingy designed for Power Point presentations most boardrooms are equipped with. On the other hand motion picture movies are projected from digital file but hate to think price of the projection equipment.

[dkCambridgeshire]

My recent experience of choosing a digital projector for home use and U3A/club demonstrations might be of help to anyone considering purchase.

 

Because I was not fully aware of all the ‘nitty gritty’ of projectors’ specifications I spent several days making notes to document, understand and learn about terminology and options – especially regarding resolution compatibility with my computer and the types of light processing/colour technologies employed.

 

First priority was a quick refresher regarding native resolutions available and their recommended uses. The following list is daunting when first considered:

 

SVGA (800x600)

XGA (1024x768)

WXGA (1280x800)

SXGA+ (1400x1050)

UXGA (1600x1200)

WSXGA +(1680x1050)

HD (1920x1080p)

WUXGA (1920x1200)

 

The lower SVGA and XGA resolutions are fine for small screen business presentations but not necessarily suitable for quality photographic image projection.

 

Google searches familiarized myself with most of the ‘projector speak’ language and possible snags when purchasing secondhand e.g. unknown remaining lamp life (indicated lamp hours can easily be reset), cost of replacement lamps, older/obsolete projectors’ poor/dull colour rendition, noisy operation, long cool-down time, low and incompatible image resolution and too long projector to screen distance (throw). Initially, secondhand negativity persuaded me to consider ‘new’ rather than ‘used’.

 

One new option was the latest ultra portable 'pico' projector range, also known as 'mini-beamers' and 'pocket projectors' and available from several manufacturers. The tiny palm top size, battery powered projectors which can fit into a shirt pocket were initially very tempting – especially when the Maplin salesman announced,“They're HD ready!” The pico market sector is fast moving and competitive but the newer models with the latest ever improving diode technologies appear to render previous models obsolete relatively quickly. Although advertised as ‘HD ready’ meaning ‘HD compatible’ or ‘supports HD’, their native resolution is not HD 1080p. All pico models use DLP chip technology How DLP Works – DLP Projection Technology – Projection System – DLP Chip | DLP – Texas Instruments I eventually disregarded pico models because of their limited image brightness on large screens, battery dependence and likely quicker obsolescence.

 

After Googling ‘best buy’ and ‘best price’ leads my inclination was to consider an entry level Full HD 1920x1080p model within a price range of c. £600 - £800. This is really a rock bottom price range because professional Full HD models for theatre use can cost several thousand pounds.

 

Nearly all reviews identified shortcomings in most of the budget price Full HD models but one particular projector, the Optoma HD 131XE stood out as being excellent value. However, I soon learnt to treat retailers’ and the manufacturer’s glowing descriptions with a ‘pinch of salt’. Further research, particularly in recent AV forum posts, suggests this model is prone to poor image corner sharpness. AV forums are a very good source for independent opinions of digital projectors.

 

The manufacturer has acknowledged the HD 131XE projector’s lens fault and is replacing lenses under warranty. However, rather than chance acquiring a faulty lens, I had a rethink as to whether a budget price HD 1080p projector was really essential and whether a lower resolution slimmer looking design might suit the intended uses better. The rethink resulted in considering projectors with native WXGA 1280x800 resolution but having support for the higher SXGA+ 1400x1050, UXGA 1600x1200, WSXGA +1680x1050, and HD 1920x1080p formats – and also my Macbook’s 1440x900 and iMac’s 1920x1200 resolutions.

 

SXGA+ 1900x1050 compatibility would enable viewing PDIs prepared for club competitions and exhibitions i.e images complying with PAGB exhibition format rules.This revised specification would give more options as regards projector construction quality, size/portability, price, and types of light processing/colour technologies ie DLP, LCoS or LCD DLP vs LCD vs LCoS: Projector tech pros and cons | TV and Home Theater - CNET Reviews

 

Further research suggested that budget price DLP ‘single chip’ projectors can produce distracting rainbow colour effects. However, seeing the disturbing rainbow colours depends on an individual’s eyesight; some people can detect it, others do not. Thus even if the presenter cannot see rainbows, someone in the audience might. Budget price DLP models can also lack image contrast and colour brightness. The ‘rainbow effect’ can also be produced by very expensive professional quality DLP ‘three chip’ architecture models used in theatre environments - including the $12000 Leica Pradovit D-1200 WUXGA digital projector (now discontinued)

 

I therefore decided to disregard all DLP chip models and look for an LCD type – but to also pay special attention to ‘colour brightness’.

 

After previously deciding to ignore secondhand Ebay offerings on grounds of obsolescence, replacement lamp cost and possible poor quality/dull colour image projection, I decided to investigate Ebay again – but to only consider recent LCD models.

 

Further research suggested that Epson take a particular pride in their LCD projectors’ ‘colour light output’ (CLO) Digital Projector Colour Light Output – Epson CLO projectors - Epson whereby the white light output and colour light output are equal – thus projecting images with excellent colour fidelity.

 

Used but recent WXGA 1280x800 Epson models were then searched for with a target price of £400 or less - but only those models for which good reviews were available.

 

Recently an Epson EB 1770W with a negotiable ‘Buy it Now’ price of £390 was listed on Ebay and described by the seller as ‘little used’.

 

Several favourable reviews showed the projector was last current in November 2012, cost c. £1000 new, and had a 2 year lamp warranty. The specifications ticked the right boxes and its small footprint and very slim design looked very elegant. Specifications - Epson EB-1770W - Epson

 

The projector's 'Buy it Now' price suggested depreciation of c.£600 in less than 12 months; depreciation is a very important factor to consider if buying 'new' rather than 'secondhand'.

 

The seller’s feedback showed he is a respected vendor so instead of making an offer I phoned him and requested a ‘best price’. He suggested £350 which I willingly agreed and paid. The projector arrived well packed next day via Royal Mail 1st Class Recorded Delivery.

 

The Epson EB 1770W is in superb unmarked condition and works fine. Although no instruction manual was included, the projector is fairly intuitive ‘plug and play’ in use. A user manual and drivers were downloaded from Epson’s website. The slim 292mm x 210mm x 44mm footprint makes it eminently portable because it fits into my briefcase together with my laptop. The projector can be used independently of a computer by inserting a USB memory stick.

 

For home use and U3A demonstrations to audiences of 30-40 members, the projector is proving to be a cost effective tool. Furthermore, image brightness is such that even in daylight, screen images are very clear and contrasty. My ancient Boots 4ft projection screen is fine for digital use but I plan to replace it with a better 6ft model ... it's a case of one step at a time regarding ££budget.

 

There are so many options to consider when choosing a digital projector and as with digital cameras, they are likely to depreciate and become obsolete relatively quickly. My choice suits my budget and purposes but others may require an HD 1080p model especially if needed for PDI competition / exhibition judging under federation/PAGB rules, home cinema, or gaming use.

 

Many secondhand projector bargains are available on Ebay but they include hundreds of cheap ‘so-so quality’ ex-corporate and ex-rental models often listed as ‘refurbished’. These can be purchased for less than £100 but are unlikely to be suitable for quality image projection – especially if they are low resolution, low contrast SVGA models with aged lamps.

 

If buying used or refurbished, beware of replacement lamp cost. With older digital projector models a new lamp can cost considerably more than the secondhand projector – even if aftermarket lamps are considered.

 

If on a budget and only considering new projectors there are some bargain ‘ex demo’ and OOB (out of box) models available from AV/HiFi dealers but don’t forget to also access the various AV forums for independent opinions e.g AVForums

 

 

Best wishes

 

 

dunk

[dhsimmonds]

This is always a difficult decision!

 

However the main Federation clubs in the UK have settled upon a native resolution of 1400 x1050 pixels as projecting the closest to a 35mm slide. Certainly at my own club which also hosts a major International Salon using the same projector, this is the format and comparative side by side tests are unlikely to show differences assuming that the digital image is properly prepared.

 

The projector now almost universally used is the Canon XEED SX80 Mark II, a very fine projector. In fact the Leica Fellowship uses this projector on a shared basis with another non photo club. Unfortunately, the projectionist is still on a very steep learning curve about digital photography as are most of the LF members! I would go as far as to say it is a Leica problem per se!

 

In my own local club, the projectionist is an expert in controlling the quality of the projected image as indeed he and others have to be when judging international salons are concerned. Care includes calibrating the projector within the room being used on a regular basis and comparing the result against a known "standard" image.

 

The results are really amazing and well worth the considerable amount of money invested for the projector and calibration equipment.

 

As a seasoned International Salon exhibitor, I would say that the majority have moved to 1500 x 1050 px, but some are using a larger format at 1920px but others are still using the

earlier 1024x768 px size. The projector really must use it's native px format for optimum results.

 

It is a big subject and too big for this post to fully detail but I hope it helps rather than confuse.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Dave, you are correct in stating that most UK clubs are moving towards SXGA as their PDI standard. Clubs and societies able to afford digital projectors with this native format or larger have bought them. My club has upgraded their projector from XGA ... but I'm not sure whether the committee opted for a WUXGA or a SXGA or something in between. I need to find out.

 

My post reflected my own choice for home and U3A use .. and my own £budget. I could have bought an entry level HD 1080p model i.e. the Optoma HD 131XE but didn't for the reason stated i.e. possible lens unsharpness. I have since discovered that the HD131XE might not offer full Mac compatibility ... another reason to consider an alternative.

 

There will come a time when I need to upgrade but at the moment a WXGA projector suits my needs.

 

Decent quality Canon SXGA and WUXGA projectors cost c.£2500 which is beyond many club's budgets .. and more than I want to pay for my intended use.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[jankap]

Would a large monitor be an option?

The scanning of your slides remains of course.

But together with your own laptop you wouldn´t have technical problems.

Jan

[dkCambridgeshire]

Would a large monitor be an option?

The scanning of your slides remains of course.

But together with your own laptop you wouldn´t have technical problems.

Jan

 

A large monitor is not a suitable option for an audience of 30-40 people. I needed a projector for U3A presentations. U3A (University of the Third Age) is a UK nationwide organisation for people over the age of 50 years enabling them to participate in many different leisure, sporting, and educational activities. I help organise a U3A photography group. We do not need to use PDIs of exhibition standard size.

 

I am also a member of two photographic societies which do use PDIs at the 1400x1050 PAGB exhibition standard ... so they have higher resolution projectors.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[dhsimmonds]

Dave, you are correct in stating that most UK clubs are moving towards SXGA as their PDI standard. Clubs and societies able to afford digital projectors with this native format or larger have bought them. My club has upgraded their projector from XGA ... but I'm not sure whether the committee opted for a WUXGA or a SXGA or something in between. I need to find out.

 

My post reflected my own choice for home and U3A use .. and my own £budget. I could have bought an entry level HD 1080p model i.e. the Optoma HD 131XE but didn't for the reason stated i.e. possible lens unsharpness. I have since discovered that the HD131XE might not offer full Mac compatibility ... another reason to consider an alternative.

 

There will come a time when I need to upgrade but at the moment a WXGA projector suits my needs.

 

Decent quality Canon SXGA and WUXGA projectors cost c.£2500 which is beyond many club's budgets .. and more than I want to pay for my intended use.

 

I fully understand Dunk, my own U3A do not use a "photographic" quality projector either and frequently provide speakers who use this projector in front of a typical 3/400 person audience and it is perfectly acceptable for that purpose.

 

One just wouldn't wish to judge photographic quality from it!

 

The U3A is a splendid organisation and I get involved too but not with photography. I use their wildlife group for photographic sorties with other U3A member photographers. We do have a photo group though but at the moment it is quite basic. A wonderful "extra" social and educational part of life after retirement!

[dkCambridgeshire]

I fully understand Dunk, my own U3A do not use a "photographic" quality projector either and frequently provide speakers who use this projector in front of a typical 3/400 person audience and it is perfectly acceptable for that purpose.

 

One just wouldn't wish to judge photographic quality from it!

 

The U3A is a splendid organisation and I get involved too but not with photography. I use their wildlife group for photographic sorties with other U3A member photographers. We do have a photo group though but at the moment it is quite basic. A wonderful "extra" social and educational part of life after retirement!

 

Here's an interesting story relating how Fordingbridge Camera Club chose their new high resolution projector ...

 

Fordingbridge Camera Club: A New Projector for the Club!

 

... not my club but I admire the professional way way they decided to test the projectors.

 

dunk

[dhsimmonds]

As you say it is an interesting way of reaching a decision. I am sure that they would have made the right choice too, as 1920px is becoming increasingly common in continental photo clubs.

 

That report is particularly interesting to me as I know many of the members mentioned on their sub committee as they were at one time also members of my own club....another `New Forest' club within the Southern Federation. My own club also invested heavily on a new screen, which is a permanent fixture albeit rolling upwards when not in use.

 

Photographers used to preparing images for the web, often do not prepare their images for projection adequately. A digital slide will project much better for instance at 300dpi rather than 72dpi. It is after all only an enlarger! Modern projectors are also very powerful and images may look washed out with burnt-out highlights apparent. A little darkening usually solves this problem, so a very different process than preparing an image for printing.

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Hallo,

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