A used XV already?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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Do one or two secondhand sales really justify the continuing wishful thinking of the know-alls sitting in front of their hazy crystal balls? I guess they will grab at any straws in their "I told you so!!" attempts to belittle the camera - whilst ignoring and/or dismissing all the good comments about it.

 

dunk

[CalArts 99]

 

There could be a multitude of reasons why a dealer would be selling a used camera that has just recently been released. Maybe a staff member bought it at cost to try out and demo? Who knows....

 

And so what if something doesn't sell that well. The only thing that really matters is that a person buying it is happy with it. Why should somebody who doesn't like it even care what happens to it or how well it sells. Leica didn't insult your mother, they simply built a camera that some people will like and others will not like. It's really as simple as that.

[bill]

There's really no need for anyone to opine or "pontificate"; the market will decide, and quickly.

 

Depressingly, there is a real tendency around here these days for inconvenient facts to be rebutted loud and long by finger-in-ears, "la-la-la, not listening" responses, seasoned with passive-aggressive digs at the poster not the post. Anyone who dares to hold an opposing view is "a troll", "always negative" or "not worth listening to". Facts are drowned out by noise.

 

This camera, like the M8, polarises opinion. Members of this forum are - sadly - behaving as they did when the M8 came out then was found to have feet - sorry, UV/IR filters - of clay.

 

It is possible to disagree - in lively debate - without behaving like a middle-aged man (always a middle-aged man...) in the throes of spotty adolescence. The purchasing power of a successful executive combined with the intolerance and single-minded obsessiveness of a hormonal teenager is a toxic combination.

 

Constant criticism undoubtedly hurts the brand - but so does unquestioning loyalty. Consider this. Criticism would not exist if nobody cared. Those (of us) who do care - passionately - about Leica and wish for their success criticise out of deep frustration that our chosen brand - our "team", the trusted providers of our photographic tool of choice - market their products with all the surety of a drunken uncle playing blind man's buff and then deliver products that put them so far on the back foot that they are in danger - again - of toppling over.

 

There is a simple - monumentally simple - way for a brand to mute criticism. Deliver a product that people want. Do it consistently and support it well. Price is not even a factor - perception of value is. If something is seen as worthwhile, then people will pay your asking price.

 

When your only critics are your competition you know that yiu are getting it right. I'm not seeing anyone mounting a spoiler campaign for the XV...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[colonel]

There's really no need for anyone to opine or "pontificate"; the market will decide, and quickly.

When your only critics are your competition you know that yiu are getting it right. I'm not seeing anyone mounting a spoiler campaign for the XV...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

All very nice in theory, and I am sure most people would agree, however the practice is different from certain people in two ways:

 

1. Using a personal attack if their "camera" point is not agreed with

2. Unable to accept that other people have an different point of view. For example, you clearly think the XV is terrible and it will be a failure, others think it is is great and will sell reasonably well. Well we can both agree to differ, rather then resort to personal badgering.

 

In terms of your last point, I have never seen a spolier campaign from anyone aimed at Leica. Probably because Leica isn't even a blip on the radar of Sony, Canon, Fuji, etc.

 

Where Leica does come in is its influence on their design, for sure.

[CalArts 99]

Constant criticism undoubtedly hurts the brand - but so does unquestioning loyalty. Consider this. Criticism would not exist if nobody cared. Those (of us) who do care - passionately - about Leica and wish for their success criticise out of deep frustration that our chosen brand - our "team", the trusted providers of our photographic tool of choice - market their products with all the surety of a drunken uncle playing blind man's buff and then deliver products that put them so far on the back foot that they are in danger - again - of toppling over.

 

 

I understand what you're saying and you make a valid point. On the other hand, there are many companies that I like which have put out a particular product in their line that I would never consider buying. But then I have to realize that the company does have other customers who may like what I do not. It's not that I don't care what the company does, but sometimes I have to accept that there may be another demographic out there with different needs and desires. And that maybe the company feels it's a product that is good which will sell enough for them to make a profit.

 

Sure, we'll eventually see how 'successful' the XV is overall. I'm assuming that Leica did do some kind of market research before coming out with the camera. And what is considered successful to Leica as a for-profit company is probably going to be a lot different than what Leica is for me personally (or for anybody else.)

 

If this was all that Leica was producing (or was ever going to produce) then it would be a different story. But they aren't. And other products will come (and go.) I really don't think it's as though the VX equates as some huge disaster that will plummet the company into oblivion. And I think that I do have to accept that they will always be producing certain products that I personally will never buy. Could the X series have been better? Yes. But maybe that's only 'better for me' and may not mean 'better' for the next person, or for Leica.

[Ruhayat]

I understand what you're saying and you make a valid point. On the other hand, there are many companies that I like which have put out a particular product in their line that I would never consider buying. But then I have to realize that the company does have other customers who may like what I do not. It's not that I don't care what the company does, but sometimes I have to accept that there may be another demographic out there with different needs and desires. And that maybe the company feels it's a product that is good which will sell enough for them to make a profit.

 

Sure, we'll eventually see how 'successful' the XV is overall. I'm assuming that Leica did do some kind of market research before coming out with the camera. And what is considered successful to Leica as a for-profit company is probably going to be a lot different than what Leica is for me personally (or for anybody else.)

 

If this was all that Leica was producing (or was ever going to produce) then it would be a different story. But they aren't. And other products will come (and go.) I really don't think it's as though the VX equates as some huge disaster that will plummet the company into oblivion. And I think that I do have to accept that they will always be producing certain products that I personally will never buy. Could the X series have been better? Yes. But maybe that's only 'better for me' and may not mean 'better' for the next person, or for Leica.

 

Exactly. I tried out the much raved about Sony RX1 and hated it thoroughly. But it didn't make me go to all the forums to trash it. I just... moved on and to try out another camera that might suit me. Same thing happened when I tried the Fuji X100s.

 

Which intrigues me why some people seem to hate the XV on what borders on vitriolic.

[Ruhayat]

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...I'm assuming that Leica did do some kind of market research before coming out with the camera...

 

Actually, I hope they didn't and don't. If Steve Jobs - God bless his stubborn soul - had done focus groups we would never have gotten the NeXT, iMac, iPhone, Mac Mini and so on. Apple got to where they are today by pushing through their own vision on what they think people ought to need. As St Jobs said, people often don't know what they need until we give it to them.

 

Leica should just continue to do what they think is right for the market rather than trawl the forums to see what we think we want. If it were up to Leicaphiles, we'd like a digital M with the resolution of medium format in exactly the old M film body and costs the same as a Fuji. Fastest way to an early grave for Leica.

[wda]

One UK dealer lists a mint used XV camera with a saving of £250 on the new price. ....

I launched this thread in the belief that one reader would welcome the opportunity to buy a new XV at a small premium from an approved Leica dealer. Judging by the ensuing postings, few see it that way unless a sensible person has quietly gone and bought the camera. However I see it is still listed.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I launched this thread in the belief that one reader would welcome the opportunity to buy a new XV at a small premium from an approved Leica dealer. Judging by the ensuing postings, few see it that way unless a sensible person has quietly gone and bought the camera. However I see it is still listed.

 

For the ££ they'd save on the new price they could then af.f.fford to buy a new wrist strap, grip and lens hood

 

dunk

[CalArts 99]

I launched this thread in the belief that one reader would welcome the opportunity to buy a new XV at a small premium from an approved Leica dealer. Judging by the ensuing postings, few see it that way unless a sensible person has quietly gone and bought the camera. However I see it is still listed.

 

I apologize for even entering into the thread if that is what you sincerely were trying to do. But unfortunately it was misconstrued (at least by me) for two reasons:

 

1) There seems to be some real resentment against Leica for building this camera and it seems to have gone personal; although this also seems to happen every time Leica does anything so there's no way around that I suppose. The assumption was that this was just another response along those lines.

 

2) Your post didn't sound like you were simply directing a potential buyer to a good deal on a "mint used" XV (and it's still used, not "new" as you mentioned above) XV:

 

One UK dealer lists a mint used XV camera with a saving of £250 on the new price. It does make you wonder how a buyer can become so disenchanted with a new Leica so quickly. But I guess there are those who order on specification before the product is launched and before having the chance to handle the kit before commitment.

 

Couldn't you have just mentioned that you saw a good deal and that if anyone is interested to contact you? There was no indication as to where this camera is and yet there's a commentary on why would someone be selling a new camera so early.

 

I think those reasons are why the thread went the way it did. I imagine this heated 'debate' over the XV will subside pretty soon. The camera is here. It may not be what everyone had wanted or hoped for (I don't want it myself) but that's the way it goes.

[Paul Reading]

Exactly. I tried out the much raved about Sony RX1 and hated it thoroughly. But it didn't make me go to all the forums to trash it. I just... moved on and to try out another camera that might suit me. Same thing happened when I tried the Fuji X100s.

 

Which intrigues me why some people seem to hate the XV on what borders on vitriolic.

 

I have an RX100 and hate it. There are too many pre-set modes and no manual and what is worse the battery runs flat in the camera without use really quickly. I much prefer the menu system on my Digilux 2, it is so simple, you know exactly what you are doing and pretty much get perfect photos every time. The problem is its sensor does not cut the mustard, it is too small and can't cope well with low light.

 

I looked at the Fuji's and their menu system is even more complicated than the Sony, what is the matter with these people do they really think that more is better? I think that a camera probably needs 4 modes AP/SP/Programme/HDR/Manual, then settings to allow auto ISO or manual and flash settings.

[bill]

I don't understand the "problems" people cite with the Fuji menu system. In terms of balancing functionality and access to it with usability I would put it just behind the exemplar - Ricoh - and streets ahead of the likes of Sony and Samsung. The ability to set extensive presets (seven on my XE-1) combined with the quick-access "Q menu" and of course proper rings and dials for aperture and shutter speed makes photography on the go easy and intuitive.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[colonel]

I don't understand the "problems" people cite with the Fuji menu system. In terms of balancing functionality and access to it with usability I would put it just behind the exemplar - Ricoh - and streets ahead of the likes of Sony and Samsung. The ability to set extensive presets (seven on my XE-1) combined with the quick-access "Q menu" and of course proper rings and dials for aperture and shutter speed makes photography on the go easy and intuitive.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

I agree. Fuji's control system is excellent, it's best development yet, the X100S.

 

However Sony took a leaf out of Leicas book on the RX1.

Anyone who hasn't, should look at the RX1 menu to see how it should be done simply.

 

For a bit of light relief, you might like this:

 

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/gear-gadgets/fuji-x100s-review-a-camera-walks-into-a-bar/

[earleygallery]

Someone on this site is selling their new M. I guess that means both of Leica's recent cameras are failures?

 

Oh no look, the sky is falling in!

[dkCambridgeshire]

The secondhand X Vario sold - probably over the weekend.

 

Interesting to see more positive comments being posted now ie complimentary opinions of those who have bought X Vario cameras and who are enjoying using them and getting good results.

 

dunk

[fotografr]

I managed to find one that someone had returned to the dealer after just barely looking at it. Got a nice 10% discount off the list price, still with full warranty. I'm happy!

[cam2000]

Congratulations Brent..... Let us know your review!