Color distracts? The subject is black and white

[Luke_Miller]

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As I read the article I found it to be very specifically worded, and carefully constructed. I see no hint of sparking a debate, or challenging my thinking. I see opinion, outright opinion.

 

He's entitled to it, as others here are to challenge it. I think if you asked members here to engage in the debate you wish for you would be very pleased with the depth of response.

 

Ask them? You have given them as much chance as you imply they have given the author, i.e. none.

 

Thank you for making my point

 

Meaningful discussion is, sadly, out of style. When it was in style discussion was characterized by mutual respect for both the individual and his/her views whether we personally agreed with them or not. Discussions were entered into with open minds and there was always the understanding that no matter how confident we were in the validity of our own views - there was always the possibility we might be mistaken. We argued our points without getting personal. And we always learned something from the open exchange of ideas and their underlying basis even if we came away with renewed confidence in our own viewpoint. And sometimes we even were known to change our mind in the face of a compelling argument.

 

Those days now seem a distant memory.

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[pico]

[,,,]Meaningful discussion is, sadly, out of style [..,]

 

No, Sir, it is not out out of style. So I will post in hopes we shall revive the subject fairly.

 

The BW issue has been hashed about for decades. It is easy to profess the virtues, or not, for choosing monochrome.

 

The ease on the internet to comment reveals impressions other than outcomes. The voluminous opinions without evidence are clear. Photography is about evidence of what was before the photographer!

 

If the photographer chooses to omit color then that is a statement to be considered,

[zlatkob]

I thought it was a good article and I agree with much of it, but I too disagree with the Ted Grand quote ("when you shoot them in black and white, you see their souls.”) Using the word "soul" in this context is just needless mystification. Black & white has no more of claim on "soul" than color.

 

Also, the conclusion inadvertently presents a lesson about how to shoot in color. B.D. Colen writes, "If you don’t [shoot in black & white], you’ll end up with frame full of conflicting, distracting colors, and they are what will grab the viewer’s attention." The lesson is: If you shoot in color, avoid ending up with a frame full of conflicting, disparate colors that grab the viewer's attention, ... unless that's what you intended. Shooting in color doesn't mean we have to shoot badly. Just look at Steve McCurry's amazing body of work, almost all of it in color. The Afghan girl photo mentioned above is a great example, but his work provides many great examples.

[THEME]

Maybe some of you who indeed read the article should consider this part:

 

"Also, I should point out every image I make is initially created in color; I wouldn’t think of shooting camera-created black and white JPGs, nor do I have any interest in a monochrome-only camera. After all, one of the real benefits of the digital revolution is that we have the ability to have every “film type,” and every ISO, available for every shot. I love having the ability after the shoot to reconsider my initial take on a scene — and shooting in color gives me that."

 

Challenged beliefs and habits are always a challenge, but it does never harm to listen to someone else's voice, especially if this voice has a fairly good record of experience and authenticity.

 

Last but not least, it's also a question of style.

 

And let's be honest, aren't many in with Leica for the style. Again, it never harms to have one's own beliefs challenged.

[AlanG]

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[CalArts 99]

What he's saying is basically when you shoot a person in color, you see their clothes; when you shoot them in black and white, you see their souls.

 

I think it's immoral to shoot people. And it's against the law.

 

When using color you can always photograph people without clothes to get around this apparent dilemma. Although you might notice something else that distracts you from seeing their soul. Although to be honest I've never seen a soul in either color or B+W so I'm not sure I'd recognize one anyway.

[zlatkob]

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Improved masterpieces.

 

Definitely not improved!

 

But this raises the question of whether the analog to black & white photography is the drawing. Pencil or charcoal drawings were generally monochrome images, abstracts from reality ... similar to the black & white photograph. (I know color pencils exist, but I'm referring to da Vinci's typically black & white drawings.)

[sanyasi]

Last but not least, it's also a question of style.

 

And let's be honest, aren't many in with Leica for the style. Again, it never harms to have one's own beliefs challenged.

 

I assume this is meant as a putdown. My experience this past weekend strongly suggests there is more to Leica than style. I took a Canon kit out for city photography because I wanted to experiment with a tilt/shift lens, but I also had other lenses. For the last nine months, I've used nothing but the Leica kit when I traveled and for my general photography. For certain macro and concert photography, I used a Canon kit.

 

I can assure you the Leica kit results in an entirely different photographic experience than the Canon one. Not a better one, but a different one. It is much lighter, much less intrusive from the subject's point of view, and it forces more thoughtful shooting because there is no zoom or autofocus. For many of my efforts, it is the right tool.

[BerndReini]

Here's my two cents: if color distracts, it means it wasn't done right. If done right, it is more difficult to make a good color picture because there is one more aspect you have to worry about. With black and white, there has to be a balance of contrast throughout the frame, with color, there has to be a balance of color throughout the frame. If color doesn't add anything to the picture, it should have been shot in black and white.

 

If you test the "Afghan girl," or Helen Levitt's work, or Eggleston's against this, you will see why these color photographers are so good.

[CalArts 99]

 

Last but not least, it's also a question of style.

 

And let's be honest, aren't many in with Leica for the style. Again, it never harms to have one's own beliefs challenged.

 

I don't think it's about beliefs being challenged.

 

Anyway, the man is an educator and so why not teach them about the dialogue of this B+W versus color (and manipulated versus straight) debate instead of making these somewhat dogmatic implications about it. Students often tend to do what their mentor says since the mentor is always in the position of authority.

 

Students really shouldn't be restricted on what they should do or want they shouldn't do, but instead be taught critical thinking skills so as to discover why they might feel compelled to make certain choices in their work. Instead of being pedantic, let them discover what it means by engaging them in the whole dialectic of it all, and all that's been discussed before them. I think that would give them a lot more to contemplate.

[dwbell]

Thank you for making my point

 

Meaningful discussion is, sadly, out of style. When it was in style discussion was characterized by mutual respect for both the individual and his/her views whether we personally agreed with them or not. Discussions were entered into with open minds and there was always the understanding that no matter how confident we were in the validity of our own views - there was always the possibility we might be mistaken. We argued our points without getting personal. And we always learned something from the open exchange of ideas and their underlying basis even if we came away with renewed confidence in our own viewpoint. And sometimes we even were known to change our mind in the face of a compelling argument.

 

Those days now seem a distant memory.

 

It's certainly easier to walk away and shake your head. That's for sure.

[Guest malland]

I was once in a gallery in Paris that had an exhibition of Ralph Gibson's B&W and color photographs, admiring a couple of photographs from his L'histoire de France, which was his first book in color. A man who seemed to some sort of academic said, "color photographs just aren't art". Obviously as silly as some of the statements in Colen's article.

 

But let's take it from the sublime (or maybe the ridiculous) to the more mundane level of ordinary snapshots. A snapshot in color will generally be more satisfying, in the picture postcard sense, than a B&W snapshot; and a dramatic snapshot in B&W is likely to be more satisfying in looking somewhat like "art" than one in color. That doesn't mean, of course, the it's B&W photographs are deeper or more artistic than one in color. It's a question of intent and execution. For me, I prefer to think and visualize in color when I want to do color or in B&W when I want to do B&W. In the picture below, I definitely wanted color.

 

 

Leica M9-P | Summicron-28 | ISO 640 pushed 1.9 stops | f/2.0 | 1/60 sec

Bangkok

 

 

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Bangkok Obvious [WIP]

Eggleston said that he was "at war with the obvious"...

[THEME]

I like those "film" colors Mitch, but a simple black-and-white version (forgive the added vignetting) doesn't look too bad as well. While both versions have a specific message, the black-and-white version easily handles the difficult light/difficult color challenge:

 

[Guest malland]

Moriyama on a very bad night in Shinjuku after a severe hangover?

 

As I love the colors one can get with the M9 at night and am on a night shooting binge, I'd add another color picture here — but that can be seen in any case in 20 of the 40 pictures in the series linked my signature below.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Bangkok Obvious [WIP]

Eggleston said that he was "at war with the obvious"...

[jaapv]

Maybe some of you who indeed read the article should consider this part:

 

"Also, I should point out every image I make is initially created in color; I wouldn’t think of shooting camera-created black and white JPGs, nor do I have any interest in a monochrome-only camera. After all, one of the real benefits of the digital revolution is that we have the ability to have every “film type,” and every ISO, available for every shot. I love having the ability after the shoot to reconsider my initial take on a scene — and shooting in color gives me that."

 

.

I doubt he is talking about reportage (which is different), as he mentions that his images are created. I beg to differ. If you create a photograph you must visualize it. You cannot push the shutter release without a concept of the final print.

That means that you will not even consider the same subjects for black and white as you would for colour.

That (apart from the image quality/difference) is the real advantage of the Monochrom.

And makes it clear that the best thing to do if you are not sure what you are going to encounter is to carry a colour and B&W camera - or have the mental discipline to use your M8/9/240 as a B&W camera only without even thinking about colour.

 

To sit in front of a screen afterwards and make the decisions you should have made on the spot is haphazard and leads to accidental photography - snapshots in other words.

[wattsy]

Moriyama on a very bad night in Shinjuku after a severe hangover?

 

I appreciate THEME probably meant well but there is something a bit presumptuous about taking someone's photo (posted here to illustrate a point) and post a version that they think is better.

[Guest malland]

Ian (and by extension THEME), no problem at all.

 

I think it was all in the spirit of fun. In any case, I would never have a problem in someone suggestion improvements. Or criticizing, for that matter. It only gets bad in these forums when people questions one's motives or make personal attacks, which has been known to happen.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[Paul J]

I think Mitch's picture illustrates the point he was trying to make. That it works well in colour but would lose something in black and white. Colour is the sentiment of the image.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Exactly! Some images work in colour, some in black and white (a few in both) (and many of mine in neither:() A good photographer should be able to identify which is which for each subject and light.

[CalArts 99]

or have the mental discipline to use your M8/9/240 as a B&W camera only without even thinking about colour.

 

If you set most mirrorless cameras (e.g., the X2) to produce a monochrome jpeg, the screen and EVF shows the scene in B+W. It's a helpful pre-visualization device. Plus of course you get the color DNG out of the camera. Is that not the case with the M240?