Production Issues with M240?

[mjh]

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basically the M240 is incredibly slow in getting into peoples hands, especially as this was announced last September and the latest M mini announced weeks ago and in stock or shipping already.

To put this in perspective, the M was announced when there were only early prototypes available; the cameras wasn’t yet ready to ramp up production and Leica said as much – the actual roll-out was supposed to commence in early 2013. The X Vario, while being announced 9 months after the M, was actually developed in parallel; the beta test of the X Vario started not much later than the beta test of the M, i.e. in late 2012.

[MarkP]

On the issue of any production problems and the infuriating wait for some to get their M240, it would actually be good to have some statement from Leica on all of this.

 

I asked this before.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/284534-request-comment-leica-re-m-240-a-7.html

No comment from Leica...

[dwbell]

I asked this before.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/284534-request-comment-leica-re-m-240-a-7.html

No comment from Leica...

 

Yeah, to be honest this is the bit the rankles me somewhat. I expect no comment from Canon, VW, Samsung etc. But with such a small niche company with all the benefits and problems that the customer gets associated with it's size, I expect a little more communication.

 

We see signs of it in the WB thread from Jesper (? name). I would rather see Leica hiring someone with excellent niche product customer relation skills than an idiot glitzy marketing director. The customer relations would go along way to solving the marketing problem.

 

At the moment in repairs for instance, it seems you can get lucky and they're truly wonderful, or you can be unlucky and you hear nothing and it takes ages sometimes not fixing the actual problem. For a niche, premium product, I feel it should be perfect every time. And that they would benefit greatly from such behaviour.

[jaapv]

Jesko an idiot glitzy marketing director.:D:D ROTFLMAO to put it far too mildly. You made me spill my coffee all over my desk!

If you knew him you would realize how funny you are - he is the perfect antithesis.

[pedaes]

Jesko an idiot glitzy marketing director.:D:D ROTFLMAO to put it far too mildly. You made me spill my coffee all over my desk!

If you knew him you would realize how funny you are - he is the perfect antithesis.

 

Having met him in Solms, I fully endorse jaapz view, great guy. He is the team leader for the M(240), and you will be able to find an interview with him if you search hard enough - maybe on Thorsten's site.

[brianjones66]

To put this in perspective, the M was announced when there were only early prototypes available; the cameras wasn’t yet ready to ramp up production and Leica said as much – the actual roll-out was supposed to commence in early 2013. The X Vario, while being announced 9 months after the M, was actually developed in parallel; the beta test of the X Vario started not much later than the beta test of the M, i.e. in late 2012.

 

Michael

 

I fully understand this and it is really just an opinion. I am guessing the X Vario won't be trickling out to customers as slowly as the M240. I am also sure that Leica intended for more cameras to be in the hands of customers. I can't remember if the M9 was as bad as this, I know I had to wait then as well. Of course the reason we are all on here is because we love the products Leica makes, it is just frustrating more than anything not knowing.

[jaapv]

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The M9 was introduced after a small buildup on 9-9-2009, was in the shops almost immediately, but the first three months it was preorders (from people in the know) and early orders from the first couple of weeks only with shortages persisting well into 2010.

[brianjones66]

The M9 was introduced after a small buildup on 9-9-2009, was in the shops almost immediately, but the first three months it was preorders (from people in the know) and early orders from the first couple of weeks only with shortages persisting well into 2010.

 

Thanks. I didn't think there was such a wait for most people with the M9.

 

Of course if people prefer the new X Vario, they are on the dealers shelves now, as are the M240 batteries. Guess we just have to wait for everything else.

[algrove]

Spirited debate is good. I understand both where Stephen and Rick are coming from and both are passionate Leica guys.

 

The rest of us all have our own reasons for posting and no information only leaves the door open for speculation which we will gladly partake in offering. If trickling out of new M product will be the norm, then so be it.

 

If we truly search our souls we want to use the best lenses made that we all own with the latest Leica has to offer. I bet on an average most of us individuals own more than 3-4 Leica or M useable lenses. This is why we are all chiming in since we bought them to use.

 

So use them with your M9 and/or MM in the mean time and have a splendid Summer when I am sure many record the majority of their images unless you live where it is perpetual Summer.

 

Now let's see some IMAGE postings!

[dante]

Yes, there is a production issue in a market where wait times are up to a year and half and most industry players are updating their product every two years. Product does go stale (M-E, anyone?). These are not heirlooms you will be passing down to your children. They are cameras that Leica will not be supporting in as little as 6 years.

 

There may not be a problem relative to Leica's practice of inefficiently manufacturing what is now mostly an electronic product with a limited lifespan - but this is not a great strategy for long-term survival or even short-term profitability. You can manufacture things in higher volume without sacrificing your pricing, quality or brand image (Rolex, for example, makes more watches a year than almost anyone - over a million annually - and they are made to tolerances that make an M look like a farm implement).

 

And yes, there is a problem with product that is announced but not delivered (ask people in the car industry how it works when launches are delayed, allocations are strangely made, and slow production starts encourage arbitrage and gouging - it all adds up to lost volume and ticked off consumers). People want to buy cameras to use. Dealers want to move product. I have yet to see a user opinion that expresses happiness at waiting a year to get a digital camera. The best case for Leica is tolerance; but in general, dealers and customers are irritable (and probably more so with the perception that the X-Vario is holding up M shipments). I would wager that when it comes to digital cameras, a lot of people would be happier buying a $4-5K camera with more robot-built content every three years than a $7K camera every 6-7.

 

Finally, Leica needs to reform how it allocates cameras. It makes zero sense to "evenly" allocate 50 cameras a day across 500 dealers, many of which do no significant volume (and in fact some of which don't even seem to know they are dealers). Why should customers be randomly calling around their respective countries (if not other countries) to find a short waiting list? Allocations should be designed such that wait times are equal for all customers.

 

Dante

[jaapv]

The last could only be implemented if there were a way to restrict customers to one waiting list. Short of a central list managed by Leica themselves that is just about impossible. And even then they could enter themselves, their wives, kids, dogs and cats to skew the waiting time to their advantage.

[dwbell]

Jesko an idiot glitzy marketing director.:D:D ROTFLMAO to put it far too mildly. You made me spill my coffee all over my desk!

If you knew him you would realize how funny you are - he is the perfect antithesis.

 

Ah yes, poor structure on my part. No, I meant I'm very encouraged by Jesko's response, the idiot glitzy marketing manager is the fictitious person I've created who invented the "Mini M" tease.

 

Hope that's clear?

[brianjones66]

Yes, there is a production issue in a market where wait times are up to a year and half and most industry players are updating their product every two years. Product does go stale (M-E, anyone?). These are not heirlooms you will be passing down to your children. They are cameras that Leica will not be supporting in as little as 6 years.

 

There may not be a problem relative to Leica's practice of inefficiently manufacturing what is now mostly an electronic product with a limited lifespan - but this is not a great strategy for long-term survival or even short-term profitability. You can manufacture things in higher volume without sacrificing your pricing, quality or brand image (Rolex, for example, makes more watches a year than almost anyone - over a million annually - and they are made to tolerances that make an M look like a farm implement).

 

And yes, there is a problem with product that is announced but not delivered (ask people in the car industry how it works when launches are delayed, allocations are strangely made, and slow production starts encourage arbitrage and gouging - it all adds up to lost volume and ticked off consumers). People want to buy cameras to use. Dealers want to move product. I have yet to see a user opinion that expresses happiness at waiting a year to get a digital camera. The best case for Leica is tolerance; but in general, dealers and customers are irritable (and probably more so with the perception that the X-Vario is holding up M shipments). I would wager that when it comes to digital cameras, a lot of people would be happier buying a $4-5K camera with more robot-built content every three years than a $7K camera every 6-7.

 

Finally, Leica needs to reform how it allocates cameras. It makes zero sense to "evenly" allocate 50 cameras a day across 500 dealers, many of which do no significant volume (and in fact some of which don't even seem to know they are dealers). Why should customers be randomly calling around their respective countries (if not other countries) to find a short waiting list? Allocations should be designed such that wait times are equal for all customers.

 

Dante

 

You mention the perception that the X-Vario is holding up M shipments is why I think more dialogue from Leica would be a good thing. In most other industries this would not be tolerated but because it is Leica and they are a smaller manufacturer than Canon we use that as an excuse. From a brand loyalty perspective, Leica would do well to communicate more. Take Apple as an example, when things go wrong they explain it. Leica did at least do this with the loose lugs issue but need to go further to help explain the delays for the M.

 

Brian

[Thomas Chen]

Why? Why not just use your M9 until your M is delivered?

 

Mark

 

Mark,

 

I used to take pictures with Leica and Pentax and having couple of Pentax lenses in hand. The 5K IIs, without the anti-alias filter, is relatively not so expensive (US$ 1000 in Taiwan) compared with M, however, the human-machine interface is very good.

 

Just be curious to know the extent in which the firmware of a non-main-stream camera can be done.

 

Best Regards,

 

Thomas Chen

[charlesphoto99]

Well, there's definitely a supply chain problem at Leica, no denying that. Funny how when the M9 came out there were no lenses available at all, and now there are all the lenses you could want, even the exotic ones are in stock, and no camera bodies to put those on. I really have no interest in the 240 but I hate to see Leica shooting themselves in the foot this way as it's a brand I have a lot invested in.

 

And the X-Vario? Too little, too late, for too much. I think Leica want to leverage themselves as a luxury goods player (sad in itself but so the world turns), but what they don't get is that people pay premium prices for luxury gods because they see them as forever purchases, and outdated spec p&s cameras really don't fit that mold. The well to do photo enthusiasts will go for the RX-1, Fuji's etc (or up their game to the M) and the rest of the 1% could care less and probably are most happy with their smart phones as it is.

 

A funny story - many years ago I was in the local camera store and one of my subjects (and friend) was there as well. He played bass for the biggest band in recent memory and he was a photo enthusiast as well as musician. He was shopping for batteries for his Pentax K1000. "Why don't you get yourself a Leica?" I suggested. He could have bought a whole system without even blinking (while I was leveraging everything to just pony up for an M6 and one lens). "Nah" , he said, "I like my K1000. It's what I know."

 

My point being it's hubris to think that if you put it out people automatically want it just because they can afford it. My wife's sister who lives in Germany, her and her husband drive BMWs and Porsches and own Rolex's, buy expensive art, etc etc and shoot all of their family pics on a cheap Lumix p&s. I'm bugging them all the time to at least get a Leica p&s, but they just don't see it. Most people, wealthy or otherwise, just merely want to "record" their lives and could care less about image quality, fast lenses, etc etc. So Leica need to take care of their loyal base first and worry about the rest later, and that's what I think the crux of the problem. Those who actually want a Leica (the M) are being left in the lurch and it's just bad business for a niche company.

[bocaburger]

At the risk of sounding curmudgeonly, and with no disrespect to those who are waiting to receive their M240...I won't waitlist myself for consumer products, and I could care less what the company's reasons are for production delays. When the M240 becomes readily available in stock I might get one, depending on several factors including any achilles heels that may surface in the interim, and how near that time is to the expected end of product lifecycle. Leica holds all the cards and has options in terms of production management. I have only one option: buy or not.

[charlesphoto99]

Well, I'm figuring my M9's are good for at least another 5 years (if not a lot longer) and by then I can pick up a used 240 for at least half the price (probably even well before then) or whatever next iteration Leica has put out My MM is for a lifetime (fingers crossed). Patience can be rewarding.

[dante]

The last could only be implemented if there were a way to restrict customers to one waiting list. Short of a central list managed by Leica themselves that is just about impossible. And even then they could enter themselves, their wives, kids, dogs and cats to skew the waiting time to their advantage.

 

A central list is actually fine, easy to implement, and actually in Leica's best interest. We're only talking about 1,500 units a month (at maximum), less six weeks of mandated vacation a year. Leica secures spots on the list against a $1K deposit, tracked to an individual buyer, paid by a dealer (due at the end of the month in which a spot is reserved for convenience).

 

And with the deposits, a chassis could be allocated, and once allocated, could be shown on a tracking system (replete with a couple of cheap web cams) that show the camera at its various major stages/locations (this does not have to be real-time by any means).

 

- Chassis casting

- Electronic assembly

- Calibration

- Final assembly

- Shipment

 

As I recall, this is sometimes done with cars - and Nikon definitely does this with its repairs. All this takes is some inexpensive bar coding (or a microscopic amount of human input), and it would really enhance the idea that each camera is individually made.

 

In addition, all of this would make production more accurate and delivery far more predictable - and would prevent the overproduction that seems to be the inevitable result of people's signing up for multiple no-deposit waiting lists.

 

Dante

[macjonny1]

Let's just plan on a year delay or so for every new M release by Leica.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

A central list is actually fine, easy to implement, and actually in Leica's best interest. We're only talking about 1,500 units a month (at maximum), less six weeks of mandated vacation a year. Leica secures spots on the list against a $1K deposit, tracked to an individual buyer, paid by a dealer (due at the end of the month in which a spot is reserved for convenience).

 

And with the deposits, a chassis could be allocated, and once allocated, could be shown on a tracking system (replete with a couple of cheap web cams) that show the camera at its various major stages/locations (this does not have to be real-time by any means).

 

- Chassis casting

- Electronic assembly

- Calibration

- Final assembly

- Shipment

 

As I recall, this is sometimes done with cars - and Nikon definitely does this with its repairs. All this takes is some inexpensive bar coding (or a microscopic amount of human input), and it would really enhance the idea that each camera is individually made.

 

In addition, all of this would make production more accurate and delivery far more predictable - and would prevent the overproduction that seems to be the inevitable result of people's signing up for multiple no-deposit waiting lists.

 

Dante

Wouldn't work. Most dealers here refuse to take deposits and most customers would refuse to pay them.