UliWer Posted June 13, 2013 Share #41 Posted June 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Exactly... and the quoted "prescribed words" from Solms does confirm that is vane to pretend to enter into factory-related issues.... Whilst the statement about the strap lug problem was well detailed, the above bulletin says exactly nothing that isn't well reknown (factory is small, QC controls are demanding, success of M significant....)I think that the new X intro has little of no impact on this (I haven't read details on X vario.... but seems to me it has not the CMOSIS sensor). In the german forum some people report they got their chrome version recently. So there is some hope - if there is no new incident of robbery at the railway crossing ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Hi UliWer, Take a look here Production Issues with M240?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Fgcm Posted June 13, 2013 Share #42 Posted June 13, 2013 Friends, Leica is making a business miracle. This company, 7 years ago, was an opto-mechanical small business. Less than 200 millions revenues IS a small business in this industry. In less than 7 years Leica turned into the only small business capable to issue a camera with fairly good electronics and a sensor very close to the best of e industry. Are they facing some production troubles? Maybe. Let's help the miracle. We have just to wait a while. I had my M, but nobody knows if and when my new lenses will be in sight. So what? My old lenses are anyway better than competitors ones. Let's help our beloved Leica who is giving us the best tools for our job or hobby (to me a hobby, since I'm a CPA). Take it easy my friends Franco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 13, 2013 Share #43 Posted June 13, 2013 @jaapv Uwe Weller is not an engineering company but a machining business outsourced from the mechanical production unit of Leitz in the 1980s - and now part of Leica Camera again (same owner, shortly located on one site at Leitz-Park) - it is responsible for the majority of mechanics/lens barrels and together with Leica Solms (lens grinding/polishing, assembly, adjustments, QC) responsible for the majority of value (and performance) of Leica lenses. I mentioned it because one of the first things you notice when you handle the X1/2 is that the lens assembly is not only lighter/cheaper but resembles the design of other compacts as well. According to my information the salary of a production worker at Nikon (Japan, Thailand is approx 200€) is well below under 2000€/month, considerably lower than in Germany (but higher than in Portugal) - but that was not the point. The Japanese engineer was not hired because he is cheap (in fact, he might be considered a highly paid specialist) but because of his connections and cultural knowledge with Japanese businesses. Normally, they hardly make business this way with foreign companies, they hired him to create "hybrid" products like the X-series, I'm certain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrp Posted June 13, 2013 Share #44 Posted June 13, 2013 Here's an interesting comparison of the size of the different camera manufacturers LensRentals.com - Whose Camera Will I Buy in 2018? Or will we all just be relying on our phones in 2018? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 13, 2013 Share #45 Posted June 13, 2013 LensRentals.com - Whose Camera Will I Buy in 2018? Discussion here. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 13, 2013 Share #46 Posted June 13, 2013 They hired a Japanese engineer (from Panasonic?) about one year before they brought the X1 to the market - obviously they want to keep investments down. Are you thinking of Kaoru Mokunaka? He was Panasonic’s liaison to Leica until je joined Leica as product manager for the compact cameras in 2006/2007. The X1 was his brain-child; he was the driving force behind this project and in early 2009 Leica’s management decided to actually bring it to market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 13, 2013 Share #47 Posted June 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Production Issues with M240? The company is so small that they make 50/day at full capacity. Who knows if they are even at that number. That is THE production issue. Interesting, a thread started by a guy that returned his camera because the color sucked. Why does he even care anymore, other than he enjoys stirring things up? Trolling? Folks, this is a great camera. This is not mass produced Japanese electro-plastic-crap. In my estimation, this is the best 35mm camera ever made. Give it some patients. It has only been about 90-days, for crying out loud. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_dernie Posted June 13, 2013 Share #48 Posted June 13, 2013 I am still happy with my M9. I just cancelled my M order. Will be using my Fuji X Pro-1 with Metabones speed booster or a dumb adapter to use my 10 R lenses but sticking with the M9 most of the time. Maybe I'll order one again when freely available. Maybe not. My M8, M8.2 and M9 all were supplied a reasonable time after launch. The M hasn't been despite early order from same dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 13, 2013 Share #49 Posted June 13, 2013 I'm with Rick on this. The M(240) is not for me, but it really ticks all the boxes - it does all the things which the M9 does, and it takes advantage of the switch to a CMOS sensor. What's not to like? Sure, it has teething issues - what camera doesn't? I'm really curious as to what the next iteration of this camera will be - I would like something simpler, but that's a different issue. As to production delays, this is a camera made by hand to the same standards as all M cameras - the best that Leica can manage, assembling and hand finishing in Germany. This takes time - that's the point in buying Leica. The M9 was released on 9 September 2009. When I went looking for one in September 2010, I was told locally that I would not see one, let alone be able to buy one, for 6 months minimum. And I could forget about having any real choice in lenses - it was a question of what was available. I could order one, but I'd have to pay the entire price up front (I changed dealers). Now, that local Leica dealer has a Monochrom, an ME and the X cameras and PanaLeicas and a selection of lenses on the shelf. On the Shelf! Unheard of a year ago. Sure, people are having to wait for their M(240) cameras, but is it worse than when the M9 was released? Not from here, it isn't. To compound Leica's production problems, the M(240) seems to be a roaring success. I agree that the X-Vario is irrelevant to the M(240) production - its designation "Made in German" does not put any part of it in the same league as the M and S cameras. The X-Vario release just makes Leica look inept. For what it is, I have no doubt it is a very good camera. The problem with the X-Vario is that Leica tapped into a very strong market demand with very high expectations, and then delivered the wrong camera into that market segment. That is incredibly damaging to the brand (it will recover) and makes them look incompetent, which is fair criticism, to my mind. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted June 13, 2013 Share #50 Posted June 13, 2013 A trickle is the overstatement of the day...its more like drip-feeding the customer base. True, we are not hummingbirds! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted June 13, 2013 Share #51 Posted June 13, 2013 Which would make sense except for Leica's ability to apparently produce the X Vario in significant quantity. Is the X Vario not built under exacting QA standards? Again, don't just drink the Kool-Aid...it does not make you more loyal to the brand. If you drink orange or blue Kool-Aid is that better than drinking RED? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted June 13, 2013 Share #52 Posted June 13, 2013 As for the new camera "flying off the shelves" that is not uncommon...even for the X2 at first. The only thing "flying" with M's are the scores of M bodies being flown back to Solms for whatever they are doing to them, but most seem pleased with their returned M's with proper lugs. Some lucky ones have jumped the queue by purchasing refurbished M's which were used by dealers as demos before the recall. If offered one of these take it, mine is like new and looks never used. Otherwise get an RX-1 and use it for the one year you might wait for your M to arrive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted June 13, 2013 Share #53 Posted June 13, 2013 Just to throw some fat into this fire, I relate that I have asked a completely connected, major Leica dealer (whose name I will protect even though he is not my dealer:)) where the X series and its lenses were made. He answered that he just did not know... Well, when I watch all of his video posts with Leica management, I can only assume that he does not want to know. I think any German manufacture is probably good, and hours of Solms QC and calibration even better on the M and its unrivaled glass! In his book "Super Capitalism" Robert Reich makes a case that manufacturing is becoming so decentralized that eventually there will be no singular product flow; there will just be supply chains. Parts that came from one place will suddenly come from another, assembly done here is now done there, and back to here again. Computers keep track of everything, guiding components and finished goods willy-nilly to where they are either needed most or where the highest price is offered. Leica, now, is the antithesis of this of course, but my future MP will not be completely assembled in Germany and I wouldn't be surprised if the Vario follows Mr. Reich's case in a big way . It might be said "Leica" is becoming a collection of brilliant design specs, insane assembly tolerances and serious branding. With those satisfied fulfillment can be anywhere. My M3 was not made by a Black Forest elf and Leica is smarter than most of us so I wouldn't care if they took a bit of the future to increase the company's efficiency. I hold for them no ill will but, if that MP is coming from Portugal, maybe for US$5k they could toss in a bottle of Fonseca... s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HV25 Posted June 13, 2013 Share #54 Posted June 13, 2013 On a recent trip to Germany I spoke to a Leica dealer I know quite well. I was told I should be happy not having received a M240 so far given the problems with the camera and that I will have to be very patient before I may get one no matter when I ordered it. Not too encouraging then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 14, 2013 Share #55 Posted June 14, 2013 On a recent trip to Germany I spoke to a Leica dealer I know quite well. I was told I should be happy not having received a M240 so far given the problems with the camera and that I will have to be very patient before I may get one no matter when I ordered it. Not too encouraging then. Unlike you dealer, I actually own one. So, I guess I have inside information that your dealer doesn't. Here it is... the camera has no real problems to speak of. It is just a fantastic camera. I have no idea what "problems" he is talking about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rirakuma Posted June 14, 2013 Share #56 Posted June 14, 2013 Rick I know you love your camera and I also think that all these negative talk on the M is not productive but there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that the M does have problems. The lock ups, strap lugs, slow startup etc. I'm still going to buy the M even though I know I may encounter some of the issues because as a hobbyist these problems aren't deal breakers for me. Now to get back on topic, I live in Brisbane Australia and the dealer that I ordered with had no M come in yet. The large dealer in Brisbane have had two came in and both were priced at a ridiculous $8500 (which both sold btw). I was told I should have mine before end of May but here I am waiting with no clue of what the delivery times will be like. I'm not putting down Leica, just sharing my experience on this order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 14, 2013 Share #57 Posted June 14, 2013 I said no real problems. And, yes, I like my M. I like my RX1. I liked my M9. I liked my M8. But, I can tell you all kinds of niggles with all of them. But, the start up and the lugs are behind me. I down loaded Stephen's link to the card format program and my camera starts in a blink. I like the color and there isn't much left that a firmware update can't make better. This is just a solid camera. You'll love yours... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share #58 Posted June 14, 2013 Interesting, a thread started by a guy that returned his camera because the color sucked. Why does he even care anymore, other than he enjoys stirring things up? Trolling? That's a bit rich coming from you. My purpose in starting this thread was to examine the very real possibility that the delays in M240 production are not explained away by production capacity constraints. The X Vario release to dealers around the globe each receiving multiple copies makes the explanation of M240 delays all the more strange. I did sell my M240, for reasons that I have stated previously. Others here have done the same. I returned to shooting with the M9, but as I expect Leica to address AutoWB and other issues with firmware updates I expect to return to the M240. Your abuse of my motives does not make me less loyal to the brand, but I do choose to question statements from the company when they seem to be at odds with the facts. Cheers Rick, and happy shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 14, 2013 Share #59 Posted June 14, 2013 Which statements from the company? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share #60 Posted June 14, 2013 Well considering that the previously posted "Prescribed wording regarding delivery bottlenecks for the Leica M-System" is dated June 10, 2013 from Solms, quotes a Leica senior officer and is posted on an authorized UK dealer's website I was not questioning it's authenticity, but I suppose anything is possible. Jaap, do you believe this document to be a fabrication? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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