timothy Posted April 4, 2007 Share #1 Posted April 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Everyone, I'm looking for feedback from any Leica M shooters who use both a film M and an M8, those who shoot black and white predominately. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone is willing to do comparative testing between film and digital black and white, posting the results here? Actually, starting a new thread might be a good idea. Even better, if someone does a comparison, they might start simultaneous threads in the film and digital forums and cross link to the whichever one develops the more lively discussion. Timothy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 4, 2007 Posted April 4, 2007 Hi timothy, Take a look here Black and White: Proposed Film to Digital Comparison. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rob_x2004 Posted April 4, 2007 Share #2 Posted April 4, 2007 What would you test and how would you assess it. Digital will give you that lamely accurate and infinite clinical clarity that some like. Film will give you that vastly superior and colossaly artistic result if you are good enough at printing. Heh:D. I saw some huge sheets of Agfa multicontrast stuff today:cool: Cool as. It took four edits before I got the last edited tag...appropriately, with lamely. Digital...heh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 4, 2007 Share #3 Posted April 4, 2007 Should such a comparison be between fully digital and wet processes? M8 image printed on an inkjet - v - M film such as HP5 or TriX, process and print on traditional paper. It would be of little value to then try comparing the results on the web. My guess is some will prefer the digital look, others the film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted April 4, 2007 Share #4 Posted April 4, 2007 I do both, but haven't had enough experience with my M8 yet to really comment on the quality of the image. Before the M8 I had a D200 and before that another and another and (ad nauseum). That said, a properly exposed color slide film will still blow away a digital image, IMHO. And I've taken the same image with both for comparison. B&W is tonally and visually almost a separate medium when you compare film to digital. I've made some adsolutely gorgeous b&w conversions that even MF photographers swore was MF, but when all is said and done there is something artificial to my eye in the digital shot. The mystery, to me anyway, of b&w is found in film. I figure I'll get flamed for this, but for me b&w IS photography. And I sell a goodly amount of color prints! But what the public wants and what I believe are two different animals. So I suppose the bottom line is that I shoot color to make money and b&w to please the esthetic me. I hope this response is what you were looking for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted April 4, 2007 Share #5 Posted April 4, 2007 I wish to add one more observation:rolleyes: Leica glass has always put it's own stamp on film. Perhaps it will do the same for b&w taken with the M8. I'm going to Texas for the weekend to visit my mother on her ranch. The ranch has always been perfect for b&w so I'll give the M8 a whirl. PS. My backup is an M4 loaded with Efke 25. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnkuo Posted April 4, 2007 Share #6 Posted April 4, 2007 Digital B&W has too many variables. Just the first step of going from RAW to B&W has a number of options, some better than the other, and all have a different look. Alien skin exposure for example, will give a "film look", close but not quite the same. Or you can take digital B&W as it is, and not try to make it look like film. This is too subjective to say. As much as I love my M8, and I would convert some images to B&W, for me true B&W is still captured on film, and I would continue using my MPs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 4, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted April 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rob and James, These are very good questions. We could, for instance, compare resolution and acutance: SPUR Orthopan UR film and SPUR Nanospeed UR developer combination versus M8 as Erwin Puts has done, but his results are already conclusive. We could compare rendition of atmospheric effects: Film developed in a pyro formula versus M8, in which, I'm sure, the film/pyro would be the decisive winner. We could compare the gritty reality aesthetic: TRI-X pushed two stops versus M8 at EI 1250, and the TRI-X would be favored by everyone except for some self-deceptive Leica M8 shooters who feel they have to justify their purchases. We could compare. . . . Your point is well taken. Timothy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 4, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted April 4, 2007 Still, I would be interested in seeing the results of anyone who regularly scans black and white film and also regularly shoots the M8, if there is such a person lurking on these forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 4, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted April 4, 2007 As for myself, I prefer the pluralistic aesthetics of black and white film to monoculture of digital. However, I do not have a darkroom because I am not a homeowner, though I have very fond memories of using a darkroom in high school, I know how to split grade variable contrast print, I know how to control contrast for graded papers by using two developers or water bath, I follow internet discussions on the subject of amidol, and I try to keep abreast of the techniques of master printers. I do have a film scanner, but I have not been entirely satisfied with the results and think of it as a necessary evil for all its hassle. I have been considering purchasing the M8 on credit (I buy film on credit), yet I remain hesitant because, as John said, "there is something artificial to my eye," and I hate that artificiality. So, in an ideal world where everyone could help everyone, what I really want is not for someone to compare Leica M film and M8 digital here in the forum some much as for someone to help me out of my quandary using reason, empathy, etc. I do know that many of you here in the film forum share some of the same values, but I do not know that any of you can help me in a forum environment. Most of us come here to discuss technical concerns or to post pictures, you know. The reality is that I entered my first photo contest, winning "Honorable Mention" in the Master Printer category at the Silver Print Competition held in Pasadena a few days ago (without a darkroom, I had to have someone else make the print for me). To me, that shows I have potential to become a "fine art" photographer if I can put my mind to it and overcome my circumstances. My circumstances: I work as a Starbucks barista for a little more than minimum wage; while living with my parents, I saved up to buy a Leica M6 TTL and 50 mm Summilux; now that I'm on my own, I find it difficult to finance photography; I want to become an artist in business or, better yet, the HCB sort of photojournalist, but I feel so far away from that realization. Does anyone else have similar struggles? Or has anyone else had similar struggles in the past? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/20554-black-and-white-proposed-film-to-digital-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=220237'>More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted April 4, 2007 Share #10 Posted April 4, 2007 Tim, going to Texas in the morning with both M8 and M4. Will take duplicate shots with both bodies and post next week. You can then play judge. Cheers, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted April 5, 2007 Tim, going to Texas in the morning with both M8 and M4. Will take duplicate shots with both bodies and post next week. You can then play judge.Cheers, John Awesome! Thanks John! Have a great time on the ranch. I already have a strong sense of anticipation. Timothy Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/20554-black-and-white-proposed-film-to-digital-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=220596'>More sharing options...
ddp Posted April 6, 2007 Share #12 Posted April 6, 2007 Timothy - the digital B&W stuff I see just doesn't cut it for me. Of course there are those posting some nice M8 shots in B&W, but at the end of the day we need to accept digital as digital, and film as film. I see far too many digital owners (this applies to all brands) trying to trump film....trying to nail the coffin shut if you will. The reality is that digital has it's own unique look, much like Tri-X or Kodachrome. Your observations about purchase justification are spot on... And the shot above my post is spectacular....lots of good stuff going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 7, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted April 7, 2007 Dan Della Piazza, Damn, you have a great name! You have alliteration and rhyme. I use my full name, Timothy Alan Booth, to differentiate me from another photographer named Timothy Booth and to create a three-two-one-syllables cascade effect. Anyway, thank you for reminding me that "digital has its own unique look, much like Tri-X or Kodachrome." Do you think a specialized black-and-white-only M8 would have a unique look compared to the M8? Also, thank you for the compliments. I'm using the same picture as my signature in my latest thread, Digital Negatives: Silver Printing and Alternative Processes. Timothy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsoldt Posted April 8, 2007 Share #14 Posted April 8, 2007 I don't have a M8 but I do have a MP and an R-d1. Attached are some shots although not of the same thing. The shots were taken at the same place. The R-d1 was with a 35mm Summicron the film shot was with a noctilux. Bill Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/20554-black-and-white-proposed-film-to-digital-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=222861'>More sharing options...
timothy Posted April 8, 2007 Author Share #15 Posted April 8, 2007 Bill, The top shot is the R-d1 whereas the bottom one is the MP, eh? Or, is it the other way around! LOL! More seriously, what film were you using and at what EI? Thank you for posting these. Feel free to post additional ones. Timothy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsoldt Posted April 8, 2007 Share #16 Posted April 8, 2007 I am not sure of the exposure on the MP. Its the second one, quite a difference. It was ilford 3200, hence the grain or charachter depending on how you look at it. I try to shoot at F1 but that does not look like F1 to me. Interestingly, some people do not like the grain at least not at first blush. I showed the photo to my sister in law, my brother is the subject and in her first look at it she did not like it. But, I noticed that she took a second look at it and managed to remove it from the stack of shots and quietly put it in her purse. The R-d1 was iso 200. Again, I do not know the f-stop. I tyr to use the JFI profiles to change the character of the digital but it does not seem to do anything for me. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted April 8, 2007 Share #17 Posted April 8, 2007 Dan Della Piazza, Anyway, thank you for reminding me that "digital has its own unique look, much like Tri-X or Kodachrome." Do you think a specialized black-and-white-only M8 would have a unique look compared to the M8? Sure - I think it's quite possible. There just seems to be a knee jerk reaction to making film comparisons to digital. And I knew with the M8 it would be even more tempting to do so. It would be nice to have straight from the camera B&W that had a "look." Thanks for the comments on my name BTW! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted April 12, 2007 Share #18 Posted April 12, 2007 How's this for a comparison? My digital M8 inkjet print next to an original Ansel Adams print (I hope you see the humor in this). All kidding aside, the M8 inkjet print had better resolution than the silver gelatin print made from a large format camera taken by Ansel Adams. Tones were better on the Adams silver gelatin print but not dramatically better. I believe that once the inkjet tones match the silver gelatin tones, the argument over which is better will cease. Sorry the picture is soft, it was shot hand held at 1/15 of a second with my M8. I'm also posting the original picture shown next to the Adams print which I shot the very first day I took my M8 out for a walk. I think Adams would have become a fan of the Leica M8 if he were alive today. IMHO the M8 certainly does not produce digital looking prints, especially where people are concerned. It is in a class by itself, and the "M8 look" has become my favorite. I'll include another shot taken last week with people. I know not everyone will share my opinion, but I'm sold on the "M8 Look." This already is the best possible quality option for a camera of its size to do B&W digital photography. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm not a pro, or a techno whiz, just someone who loves photography. Cheers, Wilfredo Benitez-Rivera Photography Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/20554-black-and-white-proposed-film-to-digital-comparison/?do=findComment&comment=226763'>More sharing options...
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