M Color

[paulsydaus]

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Wow?

 

Why Wow?

Perhaps you can enlighten me with your insight, otherwise please post the thinly veiled insults elsewhere.

One guys opinion is just that. Lighten up.

Perhaps you should check this out (4k video using Noctilux): http://vimeo.com/m/45667954

[Guest malland]

Besides being off-topic — the thread is on M240 color — what does this show us: "Noctibore Strikes Again" or "No Problems Making Schlock Videos with the Noctilux?". I don't mean this as an insult, veiled or not, but simply don't see this video as something to be impressed about, 4K or not.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[mwilliamsphotography]

Back to the M color discussion ... the OP nailed down an issue that is not only being discussed openly here, but privately amongst other long time M users who prefer to avoid public controversy or appearing to be naysayers. While the OP knows of two people that sent their Ms back, there is the hidden number of those quietly falling off the buyer list as more samples come to light.

 

For me it isn't centered on AWB, since I tend to shoot custom WB ... and it isn't my aging eyes with yellow cataracts faulting color judgement ... I bought new eyes last summer : -)

 

I fear it may well be a sensor issue since there are differences manufacturer-to-manufacturer. This is readily apparent in the medium format digital arena between Kodak and Dalsa CCD sensors. Lately there have been interesting discussions regarding the Kodak sensors used in 39 meg backs falling short in certain areas of color rendering and separation that cannot be fixed with firmware or profiles. Subsequent sensors from both Kodak and Dalsa improved the issue.

 

After all, the M does have a new sensor ... one that I suspected immediately upon seeing the first Leica published samples ... they simply looked unnatural, something seemed off. However, I chalked it up to early judgements and lack of profiles, but remained uneasy given the financial commitment a digital M represents.

 

What remains to be seen is whether the sensor can be tamed ... much as the difference between the Nikon D3X and Sony A900 delivered different results from the same Sony sensor ... with the Sony approach widely regarded as something of a gold standard for out-of camera color rendition. I owned both cameras simultaneously, shot both side by side, and can attest to this.

 

If it is hardware, then either you buy the M color or you do not.

 

I remain uneasy and unconvinced. I shoot people in all sorts of light, and skin tones is the prime measure ... not travelog images in perfect light.

 

-Marc

[lct]

...I remain uneasy and unconvinced. I shoot people in all sorts of light, and skin tones is the prime measure ... not travelog images in perfect light...

Do you have personal experience with skin tones problems out of the M240 so far? Just curious.

[glenerrolrd]

Do you have personal experience with skin tones problems out of the M240 so far? Just curious.

 

Just interested but can you point us to ANY portraits that show the skin tones produced by the new M . All the examples I ve seen have been viewed as not so good ? Why do none of the proof of concepts show skin tones ?

[jaapv]

The dilemma for some being of course - if you return the camera in disgust and the skin tones problem gets solved in not too far a future -either by the raw software developers or in firmware- that will mean you have to wait for a year before you can lay your hands on a camera again. Rather a bleak prospect.

[lct]

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Just interested but can you point us to ANY portraits that show the skin tones produced by the new M . All the examples I ve seen have been viewed as not so good ? Why do none of the proof of concepts show skin tones ?

You might wish to take a look at my post above.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/280887-m-color-8.html#post2382154

[AlanG]

Just interested but can you point us to ANY portraits that show the skin tones produced by the new M . All the examples I ve seen have been viewed as not so good ? Why do none of the proof of concepts show skin tones ?

 

I too am curious. Also on this point, has/can anyone post raw files along with their processed images that show the problem with skin tone or other color reproduction? I'd like to see if the "issues" that bother them can be adjusted away satisfactorily or if there is something in the capture system preventing this.

[sblitz]

Marc -- you look a bit young in your photo to have aging eyes to your point about the M, spoken as a happy M9 user (purchased after the great sensor cracking incidents), I have always felt the M was really Leica's attempt to bring functions to the market (live view, high iso, we all know the list) and at least as good camera as the M9. Seems to me, from what i am reading, the current balance is whether more functionality trumps this color issue. For me, the M9 functions fine so I read from the sidelines. For others, I think the functions matter more, especially for professional applications. IMHO

[StephenPatterson]

I've spent a month with the M(240)...a very frustrating month. During that time I've captured some images that I'm very happy with, but it hasn't been easy. When the files behave they are lovely, but often the issues go well beyond simple WB. Even when corrected to a color temp that is correct, with color sliders adjusted to try and reproduce natural looking skin tones, there is just something that isn't right.

 

Today I sold my M(240) and I have no regrets. During the months leading up to the release of the M(240) I was very vocal in my criticism of the lack of full res DNG samples, and I openly questioned why anyone would want to buy a camera without knowing if the IQ was superior to it's predecessor. I even warned some individuals who asked my opinion that buying from the first batch was a guarantee to be assigned the honorary position of "beta tester". But of course all that good advice went out the window when my dealer showed me that silver box.

 

The Leica M(240) is the digital M5. It's outdated technology, poorly thought out and executed in an attempt to keep up with the Japanese competitors, stuffed in an oversized and unergonomic package that grossly resembles it's legendary predecessors. The button and dial layout is a shambles, the lack of customization is a joke and the IQ is..., well..., it's not right. The rangefinder is lovely, but of course it takes more than a rangefinder to make a successful camera.

 

We are rapidly approaching the time when Leica could become completely irrelevant in the camera market, except for optics and fashion accessories. The choice to develop their own sensor for the M(240) may go down as the single worst decision in the history of the company. In fact, it could be what destroys the company.

[mwilliamsphotography]

The dilemma for some being of course - if you return the camera in disgust and the skin tones problem gets solved in not too far a future -either by the raw software developers or in firmware- that will mean you have to wait for a year before you can lay your hands on a camera again. Rather a bleak prospect.

 

Or a prudent one. Life actually goes on without a Leica M in hand. Plus, I have a MM and S2, so do not particularly feel all that deprived : -)

 

The real dilemma is whether one wishes to drop $7,000 on an experiment. Not many demo Ms to try out ( as in 0 demos that I know of) before plunking down the Royal Ransom.

 

I like the new functionality and feel it can add to the applications I can use a M for, professionally and personally, but not at the expense of the rendition of the primary subject matter ... people.

 

I really respect the skill and talent of many the folks that have shown their samples from this camera, and while they may be satisfied, which is fine, I remain skeptical despite their hard work and post talents.

 

Time will tell, and time is something I can spare ... where $7,000 is somewhat less so.

 

-Marc

[macjonny1]

I've spent a month with the M(240)...a very frustrating month. During that time I've captured some images that I'm very happy with, but it hasn't been easy. When the files behave they are lovely, but often the issues go well beyond simple WB. Even when corrected to a color temp that is correct, with color sliders adjusted to try and reproduce natural looking skin tones, there is just something that isn't right.

 

Today I sold my M(240) and I have no regrets. During the months leading up to the release of the M(240) I was very vocal in my criticism of the lack of full res DNG samples, and I openly questioned why anyone would want to buy a camera without knowing if the IQ was superior to it's predecessor. I even warned some individuals who asked my opinion that buying from the first batch was a guarantee to be assigned the honorary position of "beta tester". But of course all that good advice went out the window when my dealer showed me that silver box.

 

The Leica M(240) is the digital M5. It's outdated technology, poorly thought out and executed in an attempt to keep up with the Japanese competitors, stuffed in an oversized and unergonomic package that grossly resembles it's legendary predecessors. The button and dial layout is a shambles, the lack of customization is a joke and the IQ is..., well..., it's not right. The rangefinder is lovely, but of course it takes more than a rangefinder to make a successful camera.

 

We are rapidly approaching the time when Leica could become completely irrelevant in the camera market, except for optics and fashion accessories. The choice to develop their own sensor for the M(240) may go down as the single worst decision in the history of the company. In fact, it could be what destroys the company.

 

Wow that's shocking...and I suppose this story is much more telling than those speaking who haven't owned the camera. If you own it and then sell it...that speaks for itself. I wonder why Leica just didn't do the Nikon thing and contract with Sony for a custom sensor. Sony clearly makes better sensors than anyone else. I still think there would be a market for the premium rangefinder experience. I've owned the RX1 and honestly a nice M with the RX1 sensor would have been fantastic.

[k-hawinkler]

I've spent a month with the M(240)...a very frustrating month. During that time I've captured some images that I'm very happy with, but it hasn't been easy. When the files behave they are lovely, but often the issues go well beyond simple WB. Even when corrected to a color temp that is correct, with color sliders adjusted to try and reproduce natural looking skin tones, there is just something that isn't right.

 

Today I sold my M(240) and I have no regrets. During the months leading up to the release of the M(240) I was very vocal in my criticism of the lack of full res DNG samples, and I openly questioned why anyone would want to buy a camera without knowing if the IQ was superior to it's predecessor. I even warned some individuals who asked my opinion that buying from the first batch was a guarantee to be assigned the honorary position of "beta tester". But of course all that good advice went out the window when my dealer showed me that silver box.

 

The Leica M(240) is the digital M5. It's outdated technology, poorly thought out and executed in an attempt to keep up with the Japanese competitors, stuffed in an oversized and unergonomic package that grossly resembles it's legendary predecessors. The button and dial layout is a shambles, the lack of customization is a joke and the IQ is..., well..., it's not right. The rangefinder is lovely, but of course it takes more than a rangefinder to make a successful camera.

 

We are rapidly approaching the time when Leica could become completely irrelevant in the camera market, except for optics and fashion accessories. The choice to develop their own sensor for the M(240) may go down as the single worst decision in the history of the company. In fact, it could be what destroys the company.

 

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Thanks for providing your feedback!

Much appreciated.

[jaapv]

Or a prudent one. Life actually goes on without a Leica M in hand. Plus, I have a MM and S2, so do not particularly feel all that deprived : -)

 

The real dilemma is whether one wishes to drop $7,000 on an experiment. Not many demo Ms to try out ( as in 0 demos that I know of) before plunking down the Royal Ransom.

 

I like the new functionality and feel it can add to the applications I can use a M for, professionally and personally, but not at the expense of the rendition of the primary subject matter ... people.

 

I really respect the skill and talent of many the folks that have shown their samples from this camera, and while they may be satisfied, which is fine, I remain skeptical despite their hard work and post talents.

 

Time will tell, and time is something I can spare ... where $7,000 is somewhat less so.

 

-Marc

Each to his own... But based on past experience with the M8 and M9 it would not be my decision. Plus, the M will be just as sellable as it is right now in a few weeks or even a few months' time. There is absolutely no need for overly hasty actions.

[StephenPatterson]

Just to be clear:

 

Even if the M(240) didn't have WB issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have color issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have SD card issues causing slow start up times, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have lock up issues requiring removal of the battery, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to do something with the M button besides make movies, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to lock in exposure prior to focus peaking

Even if the M(240) allowed me to change exposure compensation by turning the dial, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to shoot above ISO3200 without having serious banding......

 

.....even if all this was solved it still wouldn't change the fact that the files are lacking when compared to my M9 files.

[jaapv]

But... The colour issues the M is having now are far less problematic than the ones the M9 had at the same stage of its career. As I say, each to his own decision and I genuinely wish you will not regret yours....( you could have sold the camera to me, btw:mad:)

[k-hawinkler]

Just to be clear:

 

Even if the M(240) didn't have WB issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have color issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have SD card issues causing slow start up times, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have lock up issues requiring removal of the battery, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to do something with the M button besides make movies, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to lock in exposure prior to focus peaking

Even if the M(240) allowed me to change exposure compensation by turning the dial, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to shoot above ISO3200 without having serious banding......

 

.....even if all this was solved it still wouldn't change the fact that the files are lacking when compared to my M9 files.

 

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Many thanks. That's quite a useful summary!

So, which camera will you be relying on?

The 5dm3?

[AlanG]

...When the files behave they are lovely, but often the issues go well beyond simple WB. Even when corrected to a color temp that is correct, with color sliders adjusted to try and reproduce natural looking skin tones, there is just something that isn't right...

 

 

Is there any way you can post a couple skin tone DNGs so that I can look at them and take a stab at adjusting? Also if you can post some samples of what you are looking for in skin tones.

[StephenPatterson]

Is there any way you can post a couple skin tone DNGs so that I can look at them and take a stab at adjusting? Also if you can post some samples of what you are looking for in skin tones.

 

Hi Alan,

 

I'm in Hong Kong working with another photographer on some shoots until next week, but if you PM me I will send you some files in a day or so.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[StephenPatterson]

Hi Stephen,

 

Many thanks. That's quite a useful summary!

So, which camera will you be relying on?

The 5dm3?

 

The Canon 5DMk3, the Fuji X100S, the Sony RX-1...all deliver without a fight. Oh, and don't forget the M9. I spent an entire month recently in Thailand and Cambodia with the M9 and 5DMk3 and while the Canon was a workhorse and delivered on all counts, my "Wow, I love that shot" files, were mostly from the M9.