M Color

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

just out of interest, Mitch. If C1 works, it proves that it is a simple software issue. I speak as somebody who thoroughly dislikes LR, btw. Although I find it practical for the Monochrom.

Kurt, I take your point that it's worthwhile to have a specific thread on this subject.

 

Sandy, I think we're talking about raw files, not JPGS. I'm not sure the solution is for the user to make his own profiles and, if it's a sensor issue, which I think is highly unlikely, then many people simply will not want the camera at all. My feeling is that the issues will be solved by a combination of firmware updates and better profiles.

 

Jaap, it seems to me that people should not have to go to C1, a program that I, for one, don't care for, but should be able to use LR4 as that is the software that comes with the camera. At this stage, I simply am not interested in being an early adaptor.

 

—Mitch/Potomac

Bangkok Hysteria (download link for book project)

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest malland]

Jaap, I'm not fond of LR either and much prefer the user interface of Aperture, but for M-Monochrom and M9 files find that LR is very good. Otherwise, I would have used RPP in combination with Aperture.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Lanka Footsteps [M-Monochrom/Sri Lanka]

[pico]

One virtue of digital is that you can make your own custom profile.

 

Another is that people can share profiles. Load them up to a server, provide links, try them, converse and be happy.

 

I haven't seen the later occur yet. Perhaps the forum will provide a space for such.

[D&A]

That's not particularly helpful. Neither are some of the other postings above that seem to pretend that there is no issue on color rendition that can't be fixed by the user twiddling the file.

 

I think what Kurt has stated is a real issue, and it would be better for Leica to deal with this earlier rather than later — and I do believe it will be dealt with.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

 

Mitch,

 

You unfortunately took my comments out of context and simply extrapolated. I'm not implying that except for skin tones and often times resulting skin texture, that the new M has no other color issues to deal with. I found it most certainly does to a fair extent in my opinion...but how far a user is willing to go in terms of working on each one of their resulting raw files is quite subjective. To some, making custom profiles and/or working extensively on adjusting their raw files to get color to where they are satisfied isn't a big issue, to others it might be and then there are those sort of in the middle that realize all raw images need to be tweaked but aren't prepared nor willing to spend more than a certain amount of time before they come to the conclusion it's a bit too much to try and get it to look right. Even after all this is said and done, some feel the colors from the new M are workable, some aren't convinced they are at this point. What raw converter one uses also plays a significant role at this point.

 

My own thoughts on all this were clearly stated and I do believe like Kurt that these color issues need to be addressed and personally they aren't to my liking....but aside from images of people (skin tone and skin texture problems), I don't feel the camera is a complete dud either and most definitely has great potential. You're going to find a wide range of opinions on this topic, from what I can see. Other Leica cameras also had similar issues that were eventually worked out (in one form or another), and one can hope that this will be the case with the new M. As I said elsewhere, time will tell and I certainly have no idea at this point how it will all play out.

 

Dave (D&A)

[Luke_Miller]

So if you have issue with color rendering from raw, you really need to be either building your own profiles, or speaking with whoever built the raw developer.

 

That has certainly been my experience. The colors my M8.2 and M9 produced varied significantly depending on the raw developer I used. In fact those Adobe provided in Lightroom were unusable for serious work in my opinion. Like others I created my own that work well. Capture One has consistantly provided the best profiles I've used. Apparently they are not there yet with the new M.

 

My understanding is the DNG file contains only zeros and ones. The color rendering is totally a function of the application that converts those zeros and ones into color data. And that color data is a subjective interpretation by the software writer.

 

So I'm with Sandy. If you don't like the color in your jpegs - talk to Leica. If you don't like the color in your DNGs talk to Adobe, Phase One, etc.

[01af]

If they did, they would have observed that both the AWB setting and the color profile need work. I'm amazed at how little this has been discussed on this forum.

I wholeheartedly agree. Leica digital colour just sucks.

 

The best colour I ever saw right out of a digital camera was the Konica-Minolta Dynax 7D's—an APS-C-format 6 MP DSLR camera introduced in Fall 2004. Someone who I consider well-informed suggested that was due to Konica's expertise in colour reproduction. I really wish Leica Camera would engage one or two of those people.

 

Until then, here's my recipe for getting the M9's colour at least half-way right in Camera Raw/Lightroom (sorry, no recipe for the M, as mine hasn't been delivered yet).

 

In the Camera Calibration panel, select Process=2012 and Camera Profile=Embedded. Then adjust the primaries as follows:

 

Red Primary: Hue +15; Saturation -10.

Green Primary: Hue 0; Saturation -5.

Blue Prmary: Hue -15; Saturation -25.

 

Furthermore, in the Basic panel, tune Saturation down to -10.

 

Save these setting as your new default for the Leica M9.

[StephenPatterson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

For my part I'm frustrated with the M(240) and find myself leaving it behind more and more, or only using it as a backup after I've got the images I need with the Canon. It isn't just that the M(240) AWB is often incorrect, it's that even when the WB is corrected the colors, especially skin tones, are just not right. Working in post I can get acceptable results, but it takes a lot of work and no two images ever process the same.

 

Strangely I find that shooting with strobes results in excellent color reproduction and skin tones, and I have talk with other M(240) users who have experienced the same thing when using on camera flash.

 

I am glad that Kurt has started this thread, because I know that he has been through very similar issues with his S2 when that camera came out. I think it's time for Leica to address these issues and give owners and prospective buyers a plan of action and a timeframe for fixing this major problem.

[StephenPatterson]

One virtue of digital is that you can make your own custom profile.

 

 

Several of us from the Hong Kong Leica users group have made and shared custom profiles, but none have proven either acceptable or universal. Even shooting reference samples with other cameras and color passports have not helped to find a profile that corrects the issues with the M(240).

[Guest malland]

I wholeheartedly agree. Leica digital colour just sucks.

With that I wholeheartedly disagree because I find that the M9 produces extraordinarily good color. It's what's so great about this camera. Of course, that does not mean that post-processing is not necessary. But it does mean that in, daylight for example, the colors essentially fall in place when you set the color balance for a neutral area. Beyond that you can essentially get what you want. Mixed lighting is more difficult and subject to the interpretation in terms of what you want.

 

The M240 is different in that the color rendition is often off in terms of the yellows and reds.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[Guest malland]

Several of us from the Hong Kong Leica users group have made and shared custom profiles, but none have proven either acceptable or universal. Even shooting reference samples with other cameras and color passports have not helped to find a profile that corrects the issues with the M(240).

Yes, this is, I believe, a problem: when the color rendition of a camera is "off" like that of the M240 it's virtually impossible to produce a good profile for it. That's why I think it's a problem of firmware and color profiles.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria (download link for book project)

[johnbuckley]

I have found that the M's raw images are more similar in concept to the Monochrom's than to the M9 -- that is, what comes out of the camera needs a bit of effort to get to one's liking, but the files are incredibly malleable, flexible, filled with potential. If you like the saturated look, as I do, go for it. And if not, adjust to taste. These files are a great starting point -- and while you will surely need to fiddle, as you have to with ANY raw file from ANY digital camera, there is, in my opinion after shooting with one for six weeks, incredible potential. Again, reminds me of the Monochrom.

[D&A]

For my part I'm frustrated with the M(240) and find myself leaving it behind more and more, or only using it as a backup after I've got the images I need with the Canon. It isn't just that the M(240) AWB is often incorrect, it's that even when the WB is corrected the colors, especially skin tones, are just not right. Working in post I can get acceptable results, but it takes a lot of work and no two images ever process the same.

 

Strangely I find that shooting with strobes results in excellent color reproduction and skin tones, and I have talk with other M(240) users who have experienced the same thing when using on camera flash.

 

I am glad that Kurt has started this thread, because I know that he has been through very similar issues with his S2 when that camera came out. I think it's time for Leica to address these issues and give owners and prospective buyers a plan of action and a timeframe for fixing this major problem.

 

Stephen,

 

I ask these following questions out of keen interest (and not to make any sort of negative or disparaging comment). A while ago I read your early impressions regarding M240 files and your were quite ecstatic with the M240 files and output of the camera. It was at that time you posted some lovely street candids/(portraits (on another website) but I was sort of horrified at the color and texture of some of the skin tones i was seeing in those particular images (as well as elsewhere by others). Knowing your long time experience and expectations with the M9, especially it's output from it's CCD, I was surprised you didn't mention anything at that time. Was it at that point or later on while continuing to work with the M240 files that you realized you weren't achieving the color output and accuracy you were expecting?

 

Dave (D&A)

[sandymc]

Yes, this is, I believe, a problem: when the color rendition of a camera is "off" like that of the M240 it's virtually impossible to produce a good profile for it. That's why I think it's a problem of firmware and color profiles.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria (download link for book project)

 

If there is a problem that can't be handled via profiles, it would be more likely to be the sensor itself - the actual colors of the dyes used in the Bayer filter. E.g., not enough separation between colors to reconstruct a clean end result - to the extent that the sensor is mushing colors together (metamerism), then neither firmware nor the raw developer can completely recover the situation - lost information is lost forever.

 

Sandy

[Guest malland]

Sandy, although I have no expertise in this, the digital signal processor probably plays a more important role for color rendition than the sensor. Perhaps someone else with more knowledge on this can weigh in on this issue, but I don't think what you say is correct.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria (download link for book project)

[jaapv]

I think Sandy IS somebody with more knowledge on the subject.....

[AlanJW]

"Skin tones" is not an objectively definable term since skin tones have quite a wide gamut. Even talking about Asian skin tones there is a wide range. So is this "problem" an across the board problem? I have to assume that Leica necessarily set the auto WB at a point where the compromise was best for the widest range -- or so they thought. Did they build in too much red across the board?

 

I find the XRite colorchecker to be an easy way to profile - but that has been on a M9 only as I don't have my M yet. I think an exchange of profiles and/or settings is a terrific idea.

 

As for Sandy's last point, if this were a sensor defect, wouldn't we expect that to show up on a more unpredictable basis?

[Jeff S]

So if you have issue with color rendering from raw, you really need to be either building your own profiles, or speaking with whoever built the raw developer.

 

I don't have the technical background to know if the underlying concept is correct. My problem with the recommendation, though, is that WE shouldn't have to speak with the raw developer, LEICA should do that.

 

Digital works as a system, only as strong as its weakest link. Leica clearly recognizes the linked chain, as they bundle LR products, offer print services (with the MM), etc. Maybe Leica is too 'small potatoes' to have much control or influence regarding Adobe projects, but I'd be very disappointed if they aren't working diligently to optimize the camera output by coordinating this critical link in the chain.

 

Jeff

[sandymc]

As for Sandy's last point, if this were a sensor defect, wouldn't we expect that to show up on a more unpredictable basis?

 

I'm not saying it's a defect - even if there is an issue that can't be corrected by profile (which I'm not convinced of, but I don't have the new M, so I can't judge) it is more likely to be inherent in the design and so repeatable from camera to camera. All sensor design is compromise; this may be the "least worse answer" given the underlying technology available.

 

Sandy

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

Several of us from the Hong Kong Leica users group have made and shared custom profiles, but none have proven either acceptable or universal. Even shooting reference samples with other cameras and color passports have not helped to find a profile that corrects the issues with the M(240).

 

And yet people expect Leica to read their minds and come up with great color as a default. Nonsense. IMHO, many people simply are not ready for digital and its flexibility. They are better off with the binary 'got it' or not of color film.

.

[kdriceman]

If there is a problem that can't be handled via profiles, it would be more likely to be the sensor itself - the actual colors of the dyes used in the Bayer filter. E.g., not enough separation between colors to reconstruct a clean end result - to the extent that the sensor is mushing colors together (metamerism), then neither firmware nor the raw developer can completely recover the situation - lost information is lost forever.

 

Sandy

 

Yikes!!!