M Color

[Guest tanks]

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So when you shoot weddings, you typically deliver your images directly out of the camera?

 

I cant imagine ever giving a paying client images straight out of any camera.

 

I think you are missing the way most event photographers work. You ingest the images, cull them, then quickly fix WB, and maybe color, export for the web. The first phase should not last more than 10-15 seconds per image. Then post the images to a website for clients to pick their photos. Once orders are received, process in full only the images that are ordered.

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[daure]

The short register produces steep incidence angles that are problematic with a thick filter.. The cameras you refer to are fixed lens ones with dedicated lens designs that get around this problem.

 

For exemple, cameras (no FF) with non fixed lenses :

Fuji X-mont = 17,7 mm

MFT = 19,25 mm

(leica M-mount = 27,8 mm)

I think it has more to do with optical design than register distance.

Give a try to a 14mm Fuji x mount ...

I think it could be the time for Leica to develop new WA lenses.

The price to pay (i don't mean € or $ or £) in image quality is to high "only" to preserve the compatibility of "old" lenses with new sensors.

[jaapv]

Small sensors....

What price? There is nothing wrong with the IR sensitivity of the M9 and presumably M.

[k-hawinkler]

For exemple, cameras (no FF) with non fixed lenses :

Fuji X-mont = 17,7 mm

MFT = 19,25 mm

(leica M-mount = 27,8 mm)

I think it has more to do with optical design than register distance.

Give a try to a 14mm Fuji x mount ...

I think it could be the time for Leica to develop new WA lenses.

The price to pay (i don't mean € or $ or £) in image quality is to high "only" to preserve the compatibility of "old" lenses with new sensors.

 

 

From my limited understanding I can see that both you and Jaap have a point.

What appears to me to matter are lens design, register (flange - focal plane) distance, and diameter of the last lens element closest to the sensor.

The more oblique light rays are that hit the sensor the more special tricks are needed to make the image look good.

Leica has the additional challenge of making their digital Ms work with more or less all their existing M lenses.

Fuji created their new X-mount in such a way that new lenses designed for it (there are no old lenses) avoid some of the issues Leica is facing.

Specifically designed WA lenses for a digital M by Leica would certainly help.

In my experience though the WATE 16-18-21/4 works not only great on my M9 but also on NEX-5N, NEX-7, and OM-D E-M5.

YMMV.

[mjh]

I think it has more to do with optical design than register distance.

It has to do with both. There is a current trend towards short flange distances, large throat diameters and near telecentric lenses, and indeed this combination is solving a lot of problems. If Leica was to create a new system, chances are they would follow that trend. But this is about the M system and how to build a camera that can cope with existing lenses.

[k-hawinkler]

It has to do with both. There is a current trend towards short flange distances, large throat diameters and near telecentric lenses, and indeed this combination is solving a lot of problems. If Leica was to create a new system, chances are they would follow that trend. But this is about the M system and how to build a camera that can cope with existing lenses.

 

 

Exactly.

[daure]

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It has to do with both. There is a current trend towards short flange distances, large throat diameters and near telecentric lenses, and indeed this combination is solving a lot of problems. If Leica was to create a new system, chances are they would follow that trend. But this is about the M system and how to build a camera that can cope with existing lenses.

Isnt'it alternative to make some "more telecentric" WA lenses with the actual fixe data beeing the flange distance and the M type mount diameter ?

[jaapv]

It still would not address retrocompatability with older lenses, which is one of the key features of the Leica M system.

[pico]

I think you are missing the way most event photographers work. You ingest the images, cull them, then quickly fix WB, and maybe color, export for the web. The first phase should not last more than 10-15 seconds per image. Then post the images to a website for clients to pick their photos. Once orders are received, process in full only the images that are ordered.

 

Better yet, let the computer process in-full the final images. ANYTHING that obviates a person behind the camera is an improvement.

[almoore]

Today I sold my M(240) and I have no regrets...It's outdated technology, poorly thought out and executed...stuffed in an oversized and unergonomic package...The button and dial layout is a shambles, the lack of customization is a joke and the IQ is..., well..., it's not right

 

I haven't been able to try this camera yet so I'm not in a position to comment on the accuracy of your condemnation. However, it is kind of odd that in March you posted this: "Yes, stick with the M240...I am now at a point where I'm working with M240 files every day, but still have jobs to finish with files from the M9. I can say with no hesitation that the M240 files are much easier to work with, and are producing cleaner and sharper images."

 

What a difference a month makes.

[xrogers]

Both excitement and frustration are characteristic of human beings. Perhaps Stephen is human.

[StephenPatterson]

I haven't been able to try this camera yet so I'm not in a position to comment on the accuracy of your condemnation. However, it is kind of odd that in March you posted this: "Yes, stick with the M240...I am now at a point where I'm working with M240 files every day, but still have jobs to finish with files from the M9. I can say with no hesitation that the M240 files are much easier to work with, and are producing cleaner and sharper images."

 

What a difference a month makes.

 

A freely admit to an abundance of excitement in working with the M240 when it first arrived.and there are definite improvements in dynamic range that make the files easier to handle in post. The new shutter is very nice and the ability to use focus peaking with M lenses is a wonderful thing.

 

My comment of "outdated technology" is because I think it's amazing that the new CMOS sensor has banding issues above ISO3200 and I think the ergonomics, specifically the position of the new focus peaking button, was a choice of aesthetics over functionality.

[k-hawinkler]

Stephen,

 

Thanks for an honest answer.

It looks to me that after your understandable initial excitement you went through a learning experience and finally had to realize what matters most to you.

I think that's great.

 

Of course, other folks may have other priorities and come to a different conclusion.

Fine as well.

[StephenPatterson]

Stephen,

 

Thanks for an honest answer.

It looks to me that after your understandable initial excitement you went through a learning experience and finally had to realize what matters most to you.

I think that's great.

 

Of course, other folks may have other priorities and come to a different conclusion.

Fine as well.

 

I absolutely agree. The gentleman who bought my M(240) is a long time Leica user, and we discussed at length the improvements over the M9, the current issues (including the lug recall which will require the camera to go back to Solms) and what issues are likely to be corrected in firmware and what will not. We went out shooting together and he had a chance to experience some of the issues we have all been discussing. After all that he's confident the M(240) will be a good camera for him, and based on his needs (travel shots and some street photography) I believe he will be happy. Of course like many he is hopeful that a firmware upgrade comes soon.

[algrove]

Wow, wow, wow gentlemen. Why all this fuss blaming each other when the real blame is Blackstone who probably pushed to get the first of the M's out the door before 31 March. When 49% talks don't you think for a minute that the 51% does not listen.

 

Maybe it goes way back to renting Hall 1 for Photokina nearly 6 months before Photokina (more than a year ago) at a time when it looked like the M could easily be ready for Photokina and where production was imagined to be many months ahead of today.

 

None of us will really ever know why this has happened at all and even though Leica history has repeated itself once again (M8, M9, S2), it did not have to happen with the M, except that very different forces were at work this time.

[k-hawinkler]

Could we please get away from this blaming business, please, please!

What I am interested in is an unemotional cold tough and accurate assessment of the state the M240 is currently in and how to improve that.

Thanks. No offense intended.

[almoore]

A freely admit to an abundance of excitement in working with the M240 when it first arrived.and there are definite improvements in dynamic range that make the files easier to handle in post...My comment of "outdated technology" is because I think it's amazing that the new CMOS sensor has banding issues above ISO3200 and I think the ergonomics...was a choice of aesthetics over functionality.

 

Thanks for responding Stephen.

 

I'm not sure what you're comparing the M to but my experience is that most digital cameras are starting to show seriously compromised file quality once you start to really crank up the ISO. Anything above 640 on the M9 wasn't remotely in the league of the Japanese opposition, so if the M's problems become apparent "above ISO3200" then that puts Leica, for the first time, in the same ballpark as a 5D. As for ergonomics, by sticking to the same basic blueprint as their film predecessors, all of the digital Ms have chosen aesthetics over functionality; they've kept the "look" at the expense of the "feel".

[lct]

If we had to blame Leica each time AWB is out we would never stop. What i find surprising is that some of you did rely on that of the M9 folks.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mwilliamsphotography]

Yes, the M240 is what it is ... and finger pointing at users, non-users, the company, etc., won't change that.

 

First and foremost, Leica is about delivering what the M lenses promise. The lenses drive this system and always have, Personally, my investment in M lenses dwarfs that of the transient bodies ... and all camera evaluations come home to whether the M optics are getting their due ... which IMO is the source of any subjective opinion that I or others may form ... pro or con.

 

My eye is that of a professional Art Director as much as a photographer. A VERY successful one. So I may have a different way of evaluating than some others may have.

 

As such, I see a photographer's work in the aggregate ... whether mine, or any other who's work captures my attention or speaks to me. Obviously, content is paramount, but aesthetics also play an important "emotive" role in a photographer's expression of that content.

 

I may be one of the few people who saw a dramatic change in the work of a world famous wedding shooter when he shifted from his film Ms to Canon digital. The demarkation was immediate, and subjectively not for the better IMHO.

 

The question I have is that happening here? While it is way to early to form any definitive opinion, seeing how many respected photographer's work is effected is enough to offer caution and further study and observation regarding the emotive expression this new camera delivers.

 

I am an avid student of many Leica M shooters, and have followed their work in all its subtile iterations, often for years. IMO, some who have enthusiastically taken up the M240 have made a demarkation that they deem as good, or more often, for the better ... yet based on what my eye tells me when I look at their work with this camera so far, I am not so sure that the aesthetic shift isn't for the worse. There is just something off about it all, and I am no scientist to say why in an analytical way.

 

Of course, I make no presumption that my opinion plays any role in someone else's work. If they like or prefer the different aesthetics of the M that is their creative business, not mine ... but is does tell me to be cautious when it comes to my own body of work and how this camera may effect it.

 

Hopefully, time will sort it out and all will be well in the end. I hope so ...

 

-Marc

[chris_tribble]

A ever, thoughtful and constructive. I agree that we need the firmware improvement (and I'm reasonably confident that Leica will deliver once they've got this stupid lug business out of the way...). In the meantime, I'm still enjoying using the camera. Others will have to judge whether my work has taken a turn for the worse (though I'm so not famous that I doubt anyone will bother to check )