M Color

[wlaidlaw]

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For those of us who can bear to use LR (it is a struggle for me) and have a Gretag Macbeth CC24, it is about 5 minutes work to make a couple of DCP profiles (use a fixed colour temperature WB). This is using either Adobe's DNG profile maker or the even easier to use X-Rite profile maker, for say sunlight and subdued light. It's still not instant perfection but it's a lot better than unaltered out of the camera or the bog standard profile LR gives you for the M240. Once you have saved the profiles into the correct folder location, you will need to shut down LR and reopen to make the new profiles active. Sometimes you seem to need to run Update DNG preview and metadata from the Photo menu (although not at all sure why this would be necessary), then shut down again and re-open before the new profiles will appear under Camera Profiles in the develop module.

 

Wilson

[glenerrolrd]

So will i of course. I still don't know if the M240 will be on par with my M8.2 color wise but i suspect that my UV/IR filters won't be useless on the new body.

 

I was thinking the same thing . Is the jacket on the photograph really magenta ? I ve noticed on a number of the processed DNG s that the blacks turn magenta ...have assumed this was just an over correction of the green bias found in the embedded profile .

[glenerrolrd]

For those of us who can bear to use LR (it is a struggle for me) and have a Gretag Macbeth CC24, it is about 5 minutes work to make a couple of DCP profiles (use a fixed colour temperature WB). This is using either Adobe's DNG profile maker or the even easier to use X-Rite profile maker, for say sunlight and subdued light. It's still not instant perfection but it's a lot better than unaltered out of the camera or the bog standard profile LR gives you for the M240. Once you have saved the profiles into the correct folder location, you will need to shut down LR and reopen to make the new profiles active. Sometimes you seem to need to run Update DNG preview and metadata from the Photo menu (although not at all sure why this would be necessary), then shut down again and re-open before the new profiles will appear under Camera Profiles in the develop module.

 

Wilson

 

My exact experience and the approach I use to calibrate all my cameras (leica and Nikon) to color standard before processing . Looking at the processed color charts for an M9,M240 and D800E/R ...all processed to a color chart custom profile .....the M and M9 files looked like siblings and the D800E/R lenses looked like a family member .

 

Further inspection however revealed that the M tone map included a greater DR with a more linear tone curve (this is good but looks worse right out of the camera ) and that the saturation levels showed the bias of the M toward yellow green and the M9 toward blue magenta . Try it my test was done quickly but I measured the patches .

 

At a certain level the M9 and M are apples and oranges . Right now custom profiles is the way to achieve consistent color ...however I ve found this challenging as the light changes and a daylight standard no longer seems to work . I generally go back to processing to color by eye ..which works but is time consuming and only as good as I am on that day .

 

I did find the new Adobe Standard in Lr4.4 to be an improvement over the embedded profile and much closer to a custom profile .

[mwilliamsphotography]

Not sure why this has to get so confrontational. This is a new camera with a new sensor design, and dedicated rangefinder shooters want to know as much as possible about it from as many different perspectives as possible.

 

Given that this is science in the service of art, there are situations where any given camera will not mesh with a photographer's aesthetic subjectivity. For example, if I may para-phrase Jono ...

 

" ... For me, each manufacturer has its own signature ... I can't shoot Nikon - because I find that there is a yellow tint to evening shots which I simply can't get rid of - removing it also removes the Mojo. I really like Leica colour, but 'like' is the operative word. As some others, I feel that the colour in the Sony A900/A850 was about as good as it gets - and that was from the same sensor as the Nikon D3x ... "

 

So, subjectively, Jono feels the M preserves the Leica color he likes (regardless how he gets to that color in PP), where others who also are experienced Leica rangefinder shooters disagree. No need to insult anyone for the way they see things.

 

In short, there are enough owner/shooters in both camps to at least make potential buyers take heed, and investigate whether the M will fit their aesthetic biases.

 

For some the M240 is fine ... it needs a few fixes which are to be expected with a new camera with a brand new sensor.

 

For others, there is a suspicion of a M color anomaly in certain lighting that may be difficult to get rid of, or when removed will affect the Leica Mojo.

 

Like Jono, I also experienced the same thing with Nikon and eventually swapped over to Sony. I'm sure Nikon shooters would disagree, and comment on how we don't know how to process images, or some such comment on ability.

 

Much of this has to do with personal application. IMO, this is first and foremost a rangefinder camera used primarily in available light. In studio, I have much better solutions. If using flash on location, I have much better solutions. If I have to shoot video, I have much better solutions. Not that the M can't do these things, it just can't do them nearly as well. What it can do that none of the others can, is provide the Rangefinder way of seeing and shooting ... and now expands on the range of light levels you can do that.

 

There in lies the concern ... dealing with available light ... as often as not, low available light and the color challenges that presents. If there is a color bias with this camera that can't be corrected with firmware ... just like the Nikon yellow tint evening light situation ... then it is decision time based on your own aesthetic subjectivity.

 

For those who shoot AWB, I would hope Leica addresses this, since IMHO one should also be able to shoot reasonably decent daylight work like fast paced weddings, intuitive street photography and casual walk-about travel ... like you can with most any $800 DSLR.

 

-Marc

[chris_tribble]

I did find the new Adobe Standard in Lr4.4 to be an improvement over the embedded profile and much closer to a custom profile .

 

This matches my experience. If you've got a calibrated workflow and do a little bit of work on the import profile I find that even AWB is more than useable (and for me, much better than the 5D2 and the M9...) Which I do find odd, as there are photographers out there whose work I respect who are having so many problems!

 

Odd.

[luigi bertolotti]

Yeah - the M should have been as ready for prime time as the Boeing 787 when hitting the market....

 

..at least, it "cracks" the WB and not the structure... ... happens that, for professional reasons, I know well some of the Italian subcontractors (27% of the body comes from Italian factories)... and, curiosly, not a single Italian flight operator has yet ordered one...

[k-hawinkler]

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This matches my experience. If you've got a calibrated workflow and do a little bit of work on the import profile I find that even AWB is more than useable (and for me, much better than the 5D2 and the M9...) Which I do find odd, as there are photographers out there whose work I respect who are having so many problems!

 

Odd.

 

 

Chris,

 

Do your two Ms behave interchangeably?

Thanks.

[daure]

I was thinking the same thing . Is the jacket on the photograph really magenta ? I ve noticed on a number of the processed DNG s that the blacks turn magenta ...have assumed this was just an over correction of the green bias found in the embedded profile .

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/278227-march-lfi-debunks-ccd-vs-cmos-5.html

 

Page 5 #82

 

If everybody would start again from the fundamentals.

I mean, the Leica fundamentals in the digital era...

[jaapv]

I am sure the IR sensitivity on a CMos sensor is similar to a CCD. That has the same implications for the thickness of the IR filter given the short register distance. If it is 0.8 mm again, the IR block would be about 80% like the M9 which brings the camera into the top quarter of cameras in this respect, meaning an IR filter will only be needed in extreme circumstances.

[chris_tribble]

Chris,

 

Do your two Ms behave interchangeably?

Thanks.

 

KH - I notice no difference between the performance of the two bodies. Certainly no surprising differences with WB when I'm working in the same environment. See below - two shots from dress rehearsal for a new production of a previously unstaged musical by Lionel Bart (Quasimodo). A brave project, but you could see why it hadn't been staged when it was first written. A flawed work with a couple of good songs...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mjh]

I think he's not wanting to one-click all his photos and hoping that eventually Leica will make it so he doesn't have to.

I’m on record saying that white-balance with the M tends to err on the warm side and that Leica should fix this in a future firmware update. Several times in fact (and also in the next issue of LFI). I want the white point to be close to what I believe to be optimal because it is no fun reviewing images when the white balance is off. That is why I take the trouble of switching from AWB to a preset or an individual WB setting under incandescent lighting, even when I know that I can correct this later on. But having said that, none of this has any bearing on the eventual images. I always set the white balance in the raw converter, and with ‘always’ I do mean always, i.e. with any camera. And no, I am not shooting grey cards all the time because I don’t really care about neutral colours; I want my colours to look pleasing. When shooting under incandescent lighting I go for nearly but not quite neutral colours; there should still be a tint suggestive of the actual lighting situation. So for me there are no extra clicks involved.

[AlanJW]

Took me one minute and one single click in iCorrect to get the second pic below. Would be better with the DNG file of course but we can hardly speak of a skin tone issue.

 

 

+1 for iCorrect for flesh tones. It is the only thing I use this plug in for but it works. Oh, and the Nikon D800E files need adjustment also, as do the Sony X100. Fact is, there is no standard other than what pleases your own eye. If Stephen's workflow needs to avoid even this kind of adjustment, then of course he is right to reject the M240 as his solution. I have seen nothing so far on this thread or elsewhere to lead me to cancel my order. Maybe my eye is not as critical.

[dwbell]

...however I ve found this challenging as the light changes and a daylight standard no longer seems to work .

 

This is precisely what a dual luminance profile is for.

 

I'm at a loss to understand why there hasn't been a shot of a McBeth target and associated discussions about custom camera profiles. For such a technical forum there sure is a lot of huffing and puffing and not much proving / testing.

 

For crying out load will someone PLEASE take a one picture of a persons face together with a GTMB target card in tungsten and one in daylight or 5500K flash!?!?

[k-hawinkler]

This is precisely what a dual luminance profile is for.

 

I'm at a loss to understand why there hasn't been a shot of a McBeth target and associated discussions about custom camera profiles. For such a technical forum there sure is a lot of huffing and puffing and not much proving / testing.

 

For crying out load will someone PLEASE take a one picture of a persons face together with a GTMB target card in tungsten and one in daylight or 5500K flash!?!?

 

 

GTMB target card?

[Hookeye]

gretagmacbeth

probably

[dwbell]

Sorry, GreTag McBeth colour chart. Or the Xrite one, or the Xrite passport at a pinch.

It's the first step in understanding the palette provided by the camera, the rest is subjective, and not worth discussion in the slightest. (As it's personal opinion, and there are as many of those as there are people, and none of them are right or wrong)

[Peter H]

Sorry, GreTag McBeth colour chart. Or the Xrite one, or the Xrite passport at a pinch.

It's the first step in understanding the palette provided by the camera, the rest is subjective, and not worth discussion in the slightest. (As it's personal opinion, and there are as many of those as there are people, and none of them are right or wrong)

 

I don't agree. Its worth discussing because it is subjective. Discussion is about more than proving yourself right or wrong.

[wlaidlaw]

I am just uploading a north daylight CC24 DNG and an M240 DCP profile generated from this DNG to Dropbox. I will post once upload is complete, which takes some time at my upstream rate.

 

Wilson

[pico]

I don't agree. Its worth discussing because it is subjective. Discussion is about more than proving yourself right or wrong.

 

It is worthwhile to use both. It is very handy to have at least one solid metric, even when someone claims the red in the reference card is 'too red', and so-forth. We know his subjective interpretation, and its irrelevance when creating standards or adjustments people can share.

 

One can transcend if he wishes. It is his perfect right. But to just wail without knowing what the devil the camera is doing is frustrating to many.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wlaidlaw]

Here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n8ktnjd30daqcsc/erfebIraHe is the link to a CC24 file in very cool daylight with a colour temperature of 7250ºK with a 75mm Summarit and the DCP profile generated from that. I can take some more in different lighting conditions and post if it will help.

 

Wilson