M Color

[Jeff S]

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Just to be clear:

 

Even if the M(240) didn't have WB issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have color issues, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have SD card issues causing slow start up times, and

Even if the M(240) didn't have lock up issues requiring removal of the battery, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to do something with the M button besides make movies, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to lock in exposure prior to focus peaking

Even if the M(240) allowed me to change exposure compensation by turning the dial, and

Even if the M(240) allowed me to shoot above ISO3200 without having serious banding......

 

.....even if all this was solved it still wouldn't change the fact that the files are lacking when compared to my M9 files.

 

Deja vu all over again.

 

Even if the M9 didn't have SD card issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have sensor crack issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have red edge issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have buffer issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have only marginally better ISO performance over the M8, and

Even if the M9 IR filtration wasn't as good as the M8.2 with UV/IR filters...

 

 

(and I'm sure I'm leaving out some issues)....

 

...even if all this had been solved before release, the M9 still had color issues early on.

 

 

And of course another long list could be generated for the M8.

 

Regardless whether the new M issues will be solved in due time, it's not hard to recognize a pattern. That's why I waited for the M8.2, and why I'll likely wait for the M 260, or whatever the strange numbering system provides, and even then I'll do my own tests and make my own prints to decide. Meanwhile, all this was predictable (other than knowing the specific problems to unfold)....and just as amusing as the last couple of times.

 

Jeff

[macjonny1]

Deja vu all over again.

 

Even if the M9 didn't have SD card issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have sensor crack issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have red edge issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have buffer issues, and

Even if the M9 didn't have only marginally better ISO performance over the M8, and

Even if the M9 IR filtration wasn't as good as the M8.2 with UV/IR filters...

 

 

(and I'm sure I'm leaving out some issues)....

 

...even if all this had been solved before release, the M9 still had color issues early on.

 

 

And of course another long list could be generated for the M8.

 

Regardless whether the new M issues will be solved in due time, it's not hard to recognize a pattern. That's why I waited for the M8.2, and why I'll likely wait for the M 260, or whatever the strange numbering system provides, and even then I'll do my own tests and make my own prints to decide. Meanwhile, all this was predictable (other than knowing the specific problems to unfold)....and just as amusing as the last couple of times.

 

Jeff

 

Best course of action is to wait until the following model is released. Prices drop on the current model like a rock. Then, evaluate if you need to upgrade to the now-outgoing model. Case in point: M9 prices have dropped (but now I wonder if they will increase again!). Pick up an M9 if you like. Let the beta-testing of the M240 sort itself out. By the time it is sorted out and perfected the M260 will be announced. The M240s will flood the market.

 

Anyway, that's my plan. Keeping the M9 now...works great for me. Glad I didn't jump the gun here.

[jaapv]

Prices drop on the current model? What galaxy do you live in?

[Jeff S]

Best course of action is to wait until the following model is released. Prices drop on the current model like a rock. Then, evaluate if you need to upgrade to the now-outgoing model. Case in point: M9 prices have dropped (but now I wonder if they will increase again!). Pick up an M9 if you like. Let the beta-testing of the M240 sort itself out. By the time it is sorted out and perfected the M260 will be announced. The M240s will flood the market.

 

Anyway, that's my plan. Keeping the M9 now...works great for me. Glad I didn't jump the gun here.

 

My strategy has nothing to do with your price rationale. It's always about the best tool for my needs; if so, the value is there, if not I continue to happily use what I have.

 

Jeff

[macjonny1]

Prices drop on the current model? What galaxy do you live in?

 

Read my post carefully. It said to wait until next one is announced. M9 prices dropped a lot AFTER the M240 was announced but BEFORE it was available.

[jaapv]

Totally irrelevant to me - I don't sell my cameras anyway. The M9 is not the current camera btw - the prices dropped after the ME was announced, which is an equivalent camera - but cheaper. Anyway, it seems to me to be rather logical that a discontinued model gets cheaper when the successor is announced.

[StephenPatterson]

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Prices drop on the current model? What galaxy do you live in?

 

In Hong Kong (where everything is always for sale) the price of grey market M(240)s has dropped by $500 USD over the past two weeks, while the price of M9-Ps has risen by nearly $1000. Obviously excess supply isn't the reason for the decline in M prices.

[macjonny1]

Totally irrelevant to me - I don't sell my cameras anyway. The M9 is not the current camera btw - the prices dropped after the ME was announced' date=' which is an equivalent camera - but cheaper. Anyway, it seems to me to be rather logical that a discontinued model gets cheaper when the successor is announced.[/quote']

 

The point wasn't to ask if that was relevant to you, just a purchasing model that lets

 

1) the irritating quirks of a new Leica get worked out

2) maximizing the purchasing dollars

 

I sell mine, so my situation is different. That's ok!

[lct]

Good for M240 waiting lists that. I can't wait to receive my digital M5.

[thighslapper]

ref. Stephens rather caustic post .....

 

I have to agree with Jaap........

 

The sensor is essentially irrelevant.

 

Colour output, white balance, et al are all down to processing of the interpolated sensor output and is software dependent.

 

Currently the M's embedded profile and white balance need fine tuning. We are the usual guinea pigs.... which presumably is a cheaper option than a vast R&D and Software department....

 

.... but as you seem to like almost nothing about the camera anyway then I suppose you have made the right choice..... premature or otherwise...

[jaapv]

To be candid, the suggestion in this thread that the M9 produces ideal skin tones is rather hilarious in my view. In reality every shot of an African person has me fighting with blue splotches and the posts complaining about magenta shift on Caucasian skin are plentiful on this forum. Not that I mind, in my perspective any camera has a far more sensitive view of color shifts in complex colour subjects like skin than the human eye/brain complex, and it is up to the photographer to produce an acceptable rendering.

[jaapv]

The point wasn't to ask if that was relevant to you, just a purchasing model that lets

 

1) the irritating quirks of a new Leica get worked out

2) maximizing the purchasing dollars

 

I sell mine, so my situation is different. That's ok!

Irritating to you maybe. As it is, if you order now, you have to wait for a year to get one. That seems to be the vote of Leica's real customers...

[AlanJW]

Preface: I don't have a M(240) yet.

 

Question: Is the skin tones issue across the board on all M240s and all skin tones? Or is it an issue of Asian skin tones, Caucasian skin tones or African skin tones? It is a given that there is no one color that is correct for all skin tones and a further given that "proper skin tone" is therefore something that may require post processing. I have a hard time believing that almost any modern camera can't produce adequate skin tones (of whatever kind) with a raw file and the right post processing. In the shots posted by Jono and Tim, as well as others, there was mention of some tweaking being necessary, and I think it was 01af who posted M9 color settings that essentially allowed M240 files to look like M9 files. If that is so, then the issue (to the extent there is an issue) is fixable and selling one now seems unwarranted (if not downright panicky) unless one for business reasons cannot wait for a fix or disagrees that there ever will be one.

 

I am not canceling my order. (But I'm also keeping my M9, which is allowing me to be very patient).

[k-hawinkler]

IIRC 01af posted his settings for an M9 - had nothing to do with M240.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2379888-post26.html

[jaapv]

Preface: I don't have a M(240) yet.

 

Question: Is the skin tones issue across the board on all M240s and all skin tones? Or is it an issue of Asian skin tones, Caucasian skin tones or African skin tones? It is a given that there is no one color that is correct for all skin tones and a further given that "proper skin tone" is therefore something that may require post processing. I have a hard time believing that almost any modern camera can't produce adequate skin tones (of whatever kind) with a raw file and the right post processing. In the shots posted by Jono and Tim, as well as others, there was mention of some tweaking being necessary, and I think it was 01af who posted M9 color settings that essentially allowed M240 files to look like M9 files. If that is so, then the issue (to the extent there is an issue) is fixable and selling one now seems unwarranted (if not downright panicky) unless one for business reasons cannot wait for a fix or disagrees that there ever will be one.

 

I am not canceling my order. (But I'm also keeping my M9, which is allowing me to be very patient).

I think you are making sense.

[algrove]

This may sound stupid, but could it be that Leica are providing different cameras for Asia than for elsewhere?

 

Demographic changes are well known in other consumer products so why not here?

 

My images seem too red out of the box (obviously very early model) versus my M9 (late 2010 model and therefore better perfected), but I will not sell it for the time being as Solms has asked me to send it in to them.

[Guest malland]

In post #163, Macr (fotogarfz) put it well:

Back to the M color discussion ... the OP nailed down an issue that is not only being discussed openly here, but privately amongst other long time M users who prefer to avoid public controversy or appearing to be naysayers. While the OP knows of two people that sent their Ms back, there is the hidden number of those quietly falling off the buyer list as more samples come to light.

 

For me it isn't centered on AWB, since I tend to shoot custom WB ... and it isn't my aging eyes with yellow cataracts faulting color judgement ... I bought new eyes last summer : -)

 

I fear it may well be a sensor issue since there are differences manufacturer-to-manufacturer. This is readily apparent in the medium format digital arena between Kodak and Dalsa CCD sensors. Lately there have been interesting discussions regarding the Kodak sensors used in 39 meg backs falling short in certain areas of color rendering and separation that cannot be fixed with firmware or profiles. Subsequent sensors from both Kodak and Dalsa improved the issue.

 

After all, the M does have a new sensor ... one that I suspected immediately upon seeing the first Leica published samples ... they simply looked unnatural, something seemed off. However, I chalked it up to early judgements and lack of profiles, but remained uneasy given the financial commitment a digital M represents.

 

What remains to be seen is whether the sensor can be tamed ... much as the difference between the Nikon D3X and Sony A900 delivered different results from the same Sony sensor ... with the Sony approach widely regarded as something of a gold standard for out-of camera color rendition. I owned both cameras simultaneously, shot both side by side, and can attest to this.

 

If it is hardware, then either you buy the M color or you do not.

 

I remain uneasy and unconvinced...

From all I have seen, there is a color issue with the M240 that at first I thought would be solved with firmware updates and improved profiles for raw developers. Now I'm not so sure. I do think that the M9 produces wonderful color. If the result of the M240 fixes is that many people still prefer the M9 color rendition and think that the M240 color rendition has a "CMOS look" rather than the "CCD look" of the M9 color rendition, that would be a a disaster for Leica of possibly M5 proportions. While that might be good for M-E sales, it would still leave Leica in a very difficult situation.

 

That there is a color problem with the M240 is incontestable and the head in the sand, ostrich-like denial of some people that there are serious issues remind me of a joke about about the man who comes home early and finds his wife in bed naked with another man. He says, "What..."; she says, "It's nothing, nothing, darling, it's not what you think."; he says, "But...; she says, "Honey, it's nothing. Now, what are you going to believe, what I tell you or what you see with your eyes?"

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[marknorton]

If Leica hasn't got the filter characteristics of the Bayer matrix right, no amount of firmware fiddling is going to recreate the desired colour space so in that sense, it is down to the sensor.

[kdriceman]

If Leica hasn't got the filter characteristics of the Bayer matrix right, no amount of firmware fiddling is going to recreate the desired colour space so in that sense, it is down to the sensor.

 

So, Mark, what do you think? You have an M. You're technically competent. You're experienced with both the M and M9. Is this an AWB-only issue? Or is it an AWB+profiles issue? Or is it a hardware (sensor) issue?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jrp]

The M9 colors are pleasing, but they are not objectively accurate as this review illustrates:

 

Leica M9 / M9-P Camera Exposure - Review

 

The 20% extra saturation does not help for skin tones.

 

The specific lens, and perhaps also the use of UV filter, will also make a difference. (I love the color from some of my Leica lenses as much as the sharpness, even on a non-Leica camera.)

 

Dxomark finds that the M240 has better color separation, dynamic range and low light performance. So the M240 should produce better raw files. Where you take them is surely a matter of tuning / wrangling your raw processor.