wlaidlaw Posted May 3, 2013 Share #481 Posted May 3, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Files all up in Dropbox now https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n8ktnjd30daqcsc/erfebIraHe Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here M Color. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dwbell Posted May 3, 2013 Share #482 Posted May 3, 2013 I don't see the point in a narrow range dual profile, to be honest. The illuminant is the same for both sunlight and daylight. One being direct sun illumination, the other being that source but with global bounce and diffusion in addition (earth and clouds respectively). The "dual" aspect of the dual profile is specifically to interpolate between different illuminants. Tungsten house lights are very different illuminants to the sun. A dual tungsten would be equally as trivial in my opinion. Not to criticise your work Wilson, not at all. Just my opinion based upon what I've learnt about the topic. There are others way more clued up than I, that's for sure. Dual covers all my needs, if I get into sodium vapour, cheap old office fluorescents, some church lighting (or a mix of the above!) etc I'll do a custom on location profile. Generally, the wider the K range the better the dual profile will be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 3, 2013 Share #483 Posted May 3, 2013 I have now made a wide range dual using my north light and the halogen from yesterday. This is an image converted in LR5 using that dual illuminant. I would agree that for skin tones, it looks about correct to me. Ignore the lens EXif data - it is wrong. This is taken with the Vario Sonnar. My grandson's hands probably are that red since he was playing with the hose and they must have been very cold. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/203015-m-color/?do=findComment&comment=2313596'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 3, 2013 Share #484 Posted May 3, 2013 Wison, A wonderful grandson! Nice picture, great colors! Thanks for your efforts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 3, 2013 Share #485 Posted May 3, 2013 If you go to the same public Dropbox as in my post above, you will now find a Halogen DNG file and its matching DCP profile. Ho-hummmm! I set the M240 to 3000ºK, which should be about right for halogen GU10 50W bulbs. Now I don't know if the batch I am using at the moment are very yellow or the way that the M240 handles a 3000ºK colour temperature is wrong but the DNG is extremely yellow. To correct to neutral, I have to lower the colour temperature to 2550ºK, which is some way below normal tungsten temperature. All a bit odd. Wilson PS my old Sixti colour temperature meter seems to finally died so I cannot say for certain what the real colour temperature falling on the CC24 chart was. Same rather perplexing behaviour here Wilson ...... this colour calibration and comparison business has me running round in circles.... I have created a dual camera calibration profile based on Tungsten and D65 which appears to give better results than the embedded/adobe in LR. When I have gone back to my old indoor light photos and applied this they too have all gone much yellower ..... but ...... correcting WB then produces much better skin tones and colour balance..... As profiling uses a set light source and fixed colour target I assume it completely ignores the WB settings in the DNG info... so we are back to the variable interaction between the cameras colour profile and a wayward WB ....... even if the colour calibration is perfect..... things are not going to be right 100% of the time...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 3, 2013 Share #486 Posted May 3, 2013 I have now made a wide range dual using my north light and the halogen from yesterday. This is an image converted in LR5 using that dual illuminant. I would agree that for skin tones, it looks about correct to me. Ignore the lens EXif data - it is wrong. This is taken with the Vario Sonnar. My grandson's hands probably are that red since he was playing with the hose and they must have been very cold. Wilson Thats the sort of results my profile is giving .... the two big problems .... grass and skin look fine to me.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 3, 2013 Share #487 Posted May 3, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Same rather perplexing behaviour here Wilson ...... this colour calibration and comparison business has me running round in circles.... I have created a dual camera calibration profile based on Tungsten and D65 which appears to give better results than the embedded/adobe in LR. When I have gone back to my old indoor light photos and applied this they too have all gone much yellower ..... but ...... correcting WB then produces much better skin tones and colour balance..... As profiling uses a set light source and fixed colour target I assume it completely ignores the WB settings in the DNG info... so we are back to the variable interaction between the cameras colour profile and a wayward WB ....... even if the colour calibration is perfect..... things are not going to be right 100% of the time...... I am wondering whether it is best just to set colour temperature to 5000ºK fixed and leave it there, then correct with the eyedropper on a grey surface. The built in profile on C1 is not too bad that way and LR5 with my dual illumination DCP seems pretty good as well, if a little dark. That is one solution for the time being until Leica improve it. I make 5000ºK a real 4600º anyway. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 3, 2013 Share #488 Posted May 3, 2013 I was pondering on the same ...... as all the pre-sets seem wrong and auto is wayward so that seems the best tactic..... I have spent a couple of days wandering around with an expo-disk but it's hardly the solution for the peripatetic casual snapper.... I suppose I could use the 4 pre-sets as my own custom WB settings, but then I can't use them for other more useful things..... ..... will just have to muddle through till the boffins at Solms adjust the WB algorithms.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 3, 2013 Share #489 Posted May 3, 2013 I am wondering whether it is best just to set colour temperature to 5000ºK fixed and leave it there, then correct with the eyedropper on a grey surface. The built in profile on C1 is not too bad that way and LR5 with my dual illumination DCP seems pretty good as well, if a little dark. That is one solution for the time being until Leica improve it. I make 5000ºK a real 4600º anyway. Wilson One rather odd thing is that 5000k set on the camera WB comes out as 4800k in LR ...... it is obviously influenced by the embedded profile in the camera...... My created dual profile consistently adds 50k and +12 to +15 in tint. The results look much better. Same offset is present when the images are corrected for 18% grey..... If I get time I'll post a table of results....... ..... one thing is very clear ...... Auto WB is miles off..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 4, 2013 Share #490 Posted May 4, 2013 You would have thought that LR and ACR would give the same colour temperature results on the same image, as they use the same RAW engine but that does not appear to be the case. LR consistently shows a higher colour temp than ACR. Maybe LR5 Beta which I am using at the moment, has a further tweak to the RAW engine from ACR 7.4. C1 again shows a higher colour temp but as that is a totally different RAW engine, that is not a surprise. I cannot find where if anywhere, Aperture displays the "shot" colour temperature. The image info on one of my CC24 shows in aperture as Auto WB when I know it was taken at 5000º fixed, so that is wrong for a starter. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 4, 2013 Share #491 Posted May 4, 2013 …C1 again shows a higher colour temp but as that is a totally different RAW engine, that is not a surprise… C1 v7 gives higher values than previous versions of same. For instance 12500° vs 7500° on C1 v4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 5, 2013 Share #492 Posted May 5, 2013 Overcooked red and cyan are obvious under DNG neutral but don't seem to disappear under the M240 profiles of ACR and C1. http://img1.focus-numerique.com/focus/articles/1634/leica-m-200iso-nrstan-big.DNG. Reducing red saturation by 20 to 30 points and cyan saturation by 10 to 20 points seem tu solve a good part of the problem depending on profiles and raw converters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 5, 2013 Share #493 Posted May 5, 2013 Overcooked red and cyan are obvious under DNG neutral but don't seem to disappear under the M240 profiles of ACR and C1.http://img1.focus-numerique.com/focus/articles/1634/leica-m-200iso-nrstan-big.DNG. Reducing red saturation by 20 to 30 points and cyan saturation by 10 to 20 points seem tu solve a good part of the problem depending on profiles and raw converters. Thanks. And AWB? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 5, 2013 Share #494 Posted May 5, 2013 I'll check this when i receive the body but i don't hold my breath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 6, 2013 Share #495 Posted May 6, 2013 Overcooked red and cyan are obvious under DNG neutral... Untrue on C1 v7 though. I'll use the latter for my first tests and see what happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon_B. Posted May 6, 2013 Share #496 Posted May 6, 2013 Hi everyone, We are in contact with Leica regarding the problematic with skin tones on the Leica M (Typ 240). Leica asked us to collect some image examples to verify and inspect this issue. If you have .DNG files showing a wrong color reproduction, especially skin tones, please send me a PM. I'll provide a upload location in order to forward the data to Leica . Thanks in advance! Leon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted May 6, 2013 Share #497 Posted May 6, 2013 My own M finally arrived last week, and the first thing I did was to create a dual-illuminant profile for Camera Raw/Lightroom using a Gretag-Macbeth ColorChecker and the Adobe DNG Profile Editor. In Camera Raw, there are two default profiles available for the M: 'Embedded,' and 'Adobe Standard.' The former is totally unusable. The latter is much better—pretty good actually but still not quite there, so I'm dissatisfied with either. My home-made profile now is a subtle but significant improvement over 'Adobe Standard,' so I am happy with my M colours for now. I think every user of Adobe Lightroom or Adobe Photoshop & Bridge & Camera Raw should have one of those ColorCheckers. They come in several formats—I have the traditional A4-size 24-patch ColorChecker, as shown above, and I consider buying the small ColorChecker Passport as well. Do not confuse these with the DataColor products which look similar but are not compatible with the Adobe DNG Profile Editor which is free software (for Mac/for Win). I believe the DataColor products (or other brands) come with their own software. With such a standardised colour target you can create your own profiles for your digital cameras and avoid most colour problems easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted May 6, 2013 Share #498 Posted May 6, 2013 My own M finally arrived last week, and the first thing I did was to create a dual-illuminant profile for Camera Raw/Lightroom using a Gretag-Macbeth ColorChecker and the Adobe DNG Profile Editor. In Camera Raw, there are two default profiles available for the M: 'Embedded,' and 'Adobe Standard.' The former is totally unusable. The latter is much better—pretty good actually but still not quite there, so I'm dissatisfied with either. My home-made profile now is a subtle but significant improvement over 'Adobe Standard,' so I am happy with my M colours for now. I think every user of Adobe Lightroom or Adobe Photoshop & Bridge & Camera Raw should have one of those ColorCheckers. They come in several formats—I have the traditional A4-size 24-patch ColorChecker, as shown above, and I consider buying the small ColorChecker Passport as well. Do not confuse these with the DataColor products which look similar but are not compatible with the Adobe DNG Profile Editor which is free software (for Mac/for Win). I believe the DataColor products (or other brands) come with their own software. With such a standardised colour target you can create your own profiles for your digital cameras and avoid most colour problems easily. This is exactly what I found with Wilson's earlier post. The "Embedded" profile is not very good. The Adobe Standard is much better and a custom profile will be even better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted May 6, 2013 Share #499 Posted May 6, 2013 I do this for every single camera I buy or borrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 6, 2013 Share #500 Posted May 6, 2013 This is exactly what I found with Wilson's earlier post. The "Embedded" profile is not very good. The Adobe Standard is much better and a custom profile will be even better. Agreed...... and Leicas request for dodgy auto WB portraits is a bit late ..... I have abandoned it and use 5200k for sunlight and a dual illuminant profile as above. I took 260+ images at a steam fair today and the colour is spot on. Even skin tones are ok. Until they sort Auto WB I will be dialling in my own custom WB that has proved to be ok from trial and error experiments under different conditions....... and then applying my own 240 profile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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