M Color

[dwbell]

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I don't agree. Its worth discussing because it is subjective. Discussion is about more than proving yourself right or wrong.

 

Peter, yes, you are right and I do agree. But as Pico mentions, a solid base lines sure helps form the framework for a discussion. Once you understand the sensor to a calibrated standard, I think THEN we can talk about how it treats reds, what shifts it tends towards, what we can do about it and what we like for ourselves to do to achieve our artistic intent.

 

I'm just not sure we're there yet. "Too warm" or "not quite right SOOC" in a world of custom ICC profiles and one click WB is a pretty thin base for quality discussion. For example.

[Peter H]

I don't disagree with you or with Pico about the value of objectivity.

 

I just disagreed with your statement that subjectivity is entirely irrelevant.

 

There are different aspects to this discussion. I agree that wherever possible they should be underpinned with an objective test first, to determine where and how the cameras depart from an objective, or at least agreed, colour chart. But then the subjectivity will become a critical element in the discussion, for some people at least.

 

I didn't mean to be pedantic, but perhaps that's what I was being, by accident or habit!

[dwbell]

Agreed.

 

Pedantic is fine with me. I'm accused of the same, often.

[AlanJW]

Here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n8ktnjd30daqcsc/erfebIraHe is the link to a CC24 file in very cool daylight with a colour temperature of 7250ºK with a 75mm Summarit and the DCP profile generated from that. I can take some more in different lighting conditions and post if it will help.

 

Wilson

 

 

Thank you Wilson. I had a look at this and there are some noticeable differences among: "Embedded", "Adobe Standard" and the M240 profile, with to my untrained eye the M240 profile preferable, and workable. But what do I know. Art is in the eye of the beholder. I'm still not canceling my order and frankly I am really looking forward to tinkering with the profiles.

 

You would think from some of the posts here that leica had produced a piece of crap camera that that unredeemable.

[jpattison]

Has anyone tried Lightroom 5 beta, just to see if there is a difference in it's interpretation of DNG files from the M?

 

John

 

Lightroom Journal | Tips and advice straight from the Lightroom team.

[StephenPatterson]

I would like to know how accurate Stephen thinks this adjustment is.

 

IMHO this is not an accurate representation, but it's obviously an improvement. Much more work necessary.

[StephenPatterson]

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You say it is about not having enough time to fix this stuff in post. Really? Are you that slammed taking travel photos?

 

Not that it's any of your business but this week I have shot two weddings, one investment bank grand opening event and have done a series of executive portraits in Hong Kong. Next week I have about three thousand images to process, and while you may not be bothered when processing your holiday snaps with your Leica for me time is money. I would have loved to have used the Leica M(240) for this work, but instead I relied on the Canon and Fuji X100S. Both worked brilliantly.

 

I have every confidence that Leica will get this sorted out, but in the meantime I simply don't have the time to mess about.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I have spent no more than a few seconds using a PS action on the images posted here and the skin color, and the other tonalities are fixed. Maybe some people aren't really ready for digital yet.

 

I don't care if a person shoots a thousand pics a day. There will be only a few keepers. Consider the default output as proof, then action against the keepers.

 

My, how high and mighty.

 

A "few keepers" is the domain of the "gentleman photographer" that Leica loves so much : -)

 

Me? I'm just a working slob that likes shooting with a Rangefinder camera, and have for 40 years.

 

Obviously you have never photographed a 10 hour wedding, or a week long corporate assignment, or anything of the sort ... "Yes Mr/Mrs. client, after 10 hours of shooting all day, here are the couple of keepers you paid $6,000 for". LOL!

 

People's needs vary, and those needs dictate what they look for in a camera ... and trust me, fixing the color on every shot is rarely one of them. I'm a photographer, not a freaking Lab.

 

-Marc

[pico]

My, how high and mighty.

 

Obviously you have never photographed a 10 hour wedding, or a week long corporate assignment, or anything of the sort ... "Yes Mr/Mrs. client, after 10 hours of shooting all day, here are the couple of keepers you paid $6,000 for".

 

-Marc

 

Leica M240 is not for you and as a smart pro you should realize that Leica feels the same.

[wlaidlaw]

Has anyone tried Lightroom 5 beta, just to see if there is a difference in it's interpretation of DNG files from the M?

 

John

 

Lightroom Journal | Tips and advice straight from the Lightroom team.

 

John,

 

No change that my eyes can see. The changes are more in the tools and speed of operation.

 

Wilson

[chris_tribble]

My, how high and mighty.

 

Obviously you have never photographed a 10 hour wedding, or a week long corporate assignment, or anything of the sort ... "Yes Mr/Mrs. client, after 10 hours of shooting all day, here are the couple of keepers you paid $6,000 for". LOL!

 

People's needs vary, and those needs dictate what they look for in a camera ... and trust me, fixing the color on every shot is rarely one of them. I'm a photographer, not a freaking Lab.

 

-Marc

 

Marc - I avoid weddings (unless it's friends), but I do corporates and I do theatre and music (often with horrible mixed light) and I honestly have no problem with the M240 (and didn't with the M9) and I shoot M alongside Canon 5D2 when I need longer glass. When I do this I find the M240 EASIER to get right than the Canon - especially with mixed light.

 

I feel seriously confused by some of the assessments that are coming in here. I'm not denying anyone's experience - just confused that they're at such variance with mine. Also, in London I get ALL skin types - from the Caucasus to Namibia, from the Arctic to Brazil. I've not been having a problem with the M now that the Adobe Standard profile's here - not perfect, but perfectly useable.

 

... so around 5000 images in with two M-240 bodies, I'm happy, and my clients are VERY happy with the results

[jonoslack]

Leica M240 is not for you and as a smart pro you should realize that Leica feels the same.

 

Hey!

I disagree - I've certainly photographed all day weddings with a Rangefinder (lots), and although I can only claim one day corporate events I've done several of those as well.

 

I have only shot parties so far with the M - but they've turned out fine (better than they would have with the M9). . but I always use a fixed WB for anything like this - it makes the post processing so much faster and easier. . . . . but I agree with both Stephen and Marc, if AWB is there, then it should work properly.

 

 

all the best

[daure]

I am sure the IR sensitivity on a CMos sensor is similar to a CCD. That has the same implications for the thickness of the IR filter given the short register distance. If it is 0.8 mm again, the IR block would be about 80% like the M9 which brings the camera into the top quarter of cameras in this respect, meaning an IR filter will only be needed in extreme circumstances.

I am not shure to understand the relationship between IR sensor filter and register distance.

Some cameras have shorter Flange focal distance than the M 8,9,240.

And have a very good IR filter (understand Thicker)

[digitalfx]

My, how high and mighty.

 

A "few keepers" is the domain of the "gentleman photographer" that Leica loves so much : -)

 

Me? I'm just a working slob that likes shooting with a Rangefinder camera, and have for 40 years.

 

Obviously you have never photographed a 10 hour wedding, or a week long corporate assignment, or anything of the sort ... "Yes Mr/Mrs. client, after 10 hours of shooting all day, here are the couple of keepers you paid $6,000 for". LOL!

 

People's needs vary, and those needs dictate what they look for in a camera ... and trust me, fixing the color on every shot is rarely one of them. I'm a photographer, not a freaking Lab.

 

-Marc

 

So when you shoot weddings, you typically deliver your images directly out of the camera?

 

I cant imagine ever giving a paying client images straight out of any camera.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Leica M240 is not for you and as a smart pro you should realize that Leica feels the same.

 

No problem shooting the S2 and MM on assignment. None what-so-ever. Why not the M240?

 

Professionally used the M9/M9P for years ... it just needed to shoot a bit higher ISO is all ... a decent 1600-2500 would have done the trick. Not a lot to ask for, for that kind of coin.

 

Hope the M get straightened out ... Leica is the only game in town when it comes to traditional digital rangefinder photography.

 

-Marc

[glenerrolrd]

Hey!

I disagree - I've certainly photographed all day weddings with a Rangefinder (lots), and although I can only claim one day corporate events I've done several of those as well.

 

I have only shot parties so far with the M - but they've turned out fine (better than they would have with the M9). . but I always use a fixed WB for anything like this - it makes the post processing so much faster and easier. . . . . but I agree with both Stephen and Marc, if AWB is there, then it should work properly.

 

 

all the best

 

Jono

 

Restating the color issue as only AWB ..a dozen times doesn t make your point of view more accurate. You have a dozen photographers on this post that know exactly how a cameras color response affects a workflow . Its not as simple as a one click in post and the image has good color ....the camera calibration used in the raw developer needs to be yielding a neutral color chart . What makes this difficult is that the color response changes under different lighting . So what looks fine in daylight maybe a glaring off color in mixed lighting .

 

Tim Ashley did a very nice job of summarizing this . With custom WB (either in the camera or in post ) you can achieve a decent overall WB . By creating a custom camera profile (using the DNG profile maker ) and LR4.4 you can resolve much of the color problem . But ..there will be some images that just seem to defy calibration and can seem impossible to resolve .

 

This is not an uncommon problem with other cameras ...you saw it with the Nikon D3X in warm light ..darn hard to get the yellow out and still have any brilliance in the file . The S2 had its list of problems and none of us could get a good raw conversion at the beginning .

 

No one is saying Leica can t get there ..I sure hope they produce a file as good as the s2 . But I doubt that fixing AWB and updating the Adobe profile will be the entire fix .

 

Its a bit frustrating when others restate your position in a way that sounds like the concern is amateurish or easily resolved . Its not .

 

Further no one is making recommendations that individuals cancel orders .. we can each speak for ourselves . I am sure I could make the new M work because I am comfortable using custom camera profiles and in the end only a small percentage of my images need to be finished . But I would not shoot a wedding with it .

 

On the other hand there is absolutely no excuse for Leica not completely understanding these issues . How do you release a product like an M that has an AWB that far off in daylight ? Its been said that they respond well to customer feedback ....they need to read this post .

[bybrett]

Hey!

I disagree - I've certainly photographed all day weddings with a Rangefinder (lots), and although I can only claim one day corporate events I've done several of those as well.

 

I have only shot parties so far with the M - but they've turned out fine (better than they would have with the M9). . but I always use a fixed WB for anything like this - it makes the post processing so much faster and easier. . . . . but I agree with both Stephen and Marc, if AWB is there, then it should work properly.

 

 

all the best

 

Hi Jono

 

I also shoot a fixed Kelvin value (M9-P) for my professional work including weddings. I edit from around 1000 files shot to 500 for supply and then batch process to colour correct where necessary.

 

However I know other photographers who shoot AWB for wedding proofing and only process the images chosen for the album.

 

I'm surprised at how far out the M is in AWB as I don't remember it being so warm in the officially leaked or officially released images...

 

I remember you and the Dr shot with several cameras and one had to go back to Solms for a hardware change? Did Leica change the sensor specification towards the end of beta testing without changing the AWB work to date?

 

All the best

[jaapv]

I am not shure to understand the relationship between IR sensor filter and register distance.

Some cameras have shorter Flange focal distance than the M 8,9,240.

And have a very good IR filter (understand Thicker)

The short register produces steep incidence angles that are problematic with a thick filter.. The cameras you refer to are fixed lens ones with dedicated lens designs that get around this problem.

[Guest tanks]

Leica M240 is not for you and as a smart pro you should realize that Leica feels the same.

 

Really? So, why is Leica pushing it as a professional's camera by trotting out all the pro shooters that use Leica M cameras on a regular basis?

 

Interesting that whenever someone points out something lacking with the M240 your advice is that they should not use the camera, rather than Leica improving things.

 

There is a finite supply of well-off retirees that can afford Leica products. Having a camera that delivers consistent results can only expand Leica's market.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mwilliamsphotography]

So when you shoot weddings, you typically deliver your images directly out of the camera?

 

I cant imagine ever giving a paying client images straight out of any camera.

 

Where did I say that? You ask a question ... then proceed to answer it yourself, followed by how you can't imaging doing that ... LOL!

 

It is a matter of trying to get the WB as close as possible under the circumstances (usually manually with a M9), of exposing properly, and then the remaining "degree of PP difficulty and time spent".

 

I place all images shot with various cameras in one library sorted by time shot. Then segregate by camera and batch based on lighting conditions. The ability to batch process in groups is then important and if I have to fuss with difficult color balances that produce inconsistent skin tones, or if they require too much individual attention, then it is a tedious PITA.

 

For example, when I switched from the D3X to the Sony A900 (which many consider some of the best out-of-camera color available) ... it cut my PP time at least in half.

 

-Marc