M Color

[Rick]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Here is an example of the WB numbers. AWB = 6400/-26 (awful color - warm) GREY CARD = 5050/-12 (great color)

 

This is how far off the WB can be. Anyone that isn't starting with the Temp/Tint in the ball park is going to be all over the place trying to make a profile or making conclusions about the color.

[D&A]

Here is an example of the WB numbers. AWB = 6400/-26 (awful color - warm) GREY CARD = 5050/-12 (great color)

 

This is how far off the WB can be. Anyone that isn't starting with the Temp/Tint in the ball park is going to be all over the place trying to make a profile or making conclusions about the color.

 

I wonder if use of an Expo disc would be effective in taming the excessive warm color. Expo disc generally results in a very neutral, often too "cool" a rendition, which may be ideal for the M240 in it's present state,

 

Dave (D&A)

[digitalfx]

For the most part my WB is pretty damn good. I am experiencing an over sensitive AWB when shooting a sequence of shots in mixed lighting, but for the most part my colors are really close. I wonder if the issue is hardware related and something slipped thru QC?

[Rick]

In the Camera Calibration panel, select Process=2012 and Camera Profile=Embedded. Then adjust the primaries as follows:

 

Red Primary: Hue +15; Saturation -10.

Green Primary: Hue 0; Saturation -5.

Blue Prmary: Hue -15; Saturation -25.

 

Furthermore, in the Basic panel, tune Saturation down to -10.

 

This is really good and very close to my M9 profile. I have been applying yours to some M9 photos and so far I think yours is better. You are right that the saturation is way too high. Thanks.

[kidigital]

Kurt, I can assure that the M colors are fine if you shoot a grey card. If, you are going to use color out of camera as you stated then of course the JPEG colors are way off. AWB is wrong. Way wrong. But, if corrected with a grey card the color is very good. It is not a shame, it is not happening again... please rest assured that the color is good from the M, but for now you will need to shoot RAW with a grey card if you want to make it easy on yourself.

 

That's a perfect solution because the photographers that I shoot with in street or documentary situations typically encounter no differences in natural or artificial lighting or shadows as we quickly make our way from scene to scene on the streets during the course of a day. We also never point our camera into shops, houses or markets for grab shots.

 

In fact our world is so static and controlled, that we typically yell 'freeze' when we encounter a decisive moment so that our subjects know to stop so that we can pull out a gray card to get proper manual white balance, make our adjustments to the camera and then shoot. It's great that all of our real-time scenarios and subjects are so accommodating.

[erl]

[Rick]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

That's a perfect solution because the photographers that I shoot with in street or documentary situations typically encounter no differences in natural or artificial lighting or shadows as we quickly make our way from scene to scene on the streets during the course of a day. We also never point our camera into shops, houses or markets for grab shots.

 

In fact our world is so static and controlled, that we typically yell 'freeze' when we encounter a decisive moment so that our subjects know to stop so that we can pull out a gray card to get proper manual white balance, make our adjustments to the camera and then shoot. It's great that our real-time scenarios and subjects are so accommodating.

 

Kurt -

 

I don't think this will work. What I am trying to suggest is that it may be helpful to shoot a grey card in these situations you mention in order to get an idea of how the new M's WB is off in general shooting. You can then extrapolate what you learn about the behavior of the M's WB and apply it in LR for your street shooting. Even when Leica releases a fix for the WB it will still only be a starting point for your dynamic fast shooting. I'm afraid that you are not going to find a perfect AWB. Don't you ever make changes to the M9 AWB?

 

Rick

[D&A]

 

In fact our world is so static and controlled, that we typically yell 'freeze' when we encounter a decisive moment so that our subjects know to stop so that we can pull out a gray card to get proper manual white balance, make our adjustments to the camera and then shoot.

 

Wow! Do you think HCB did the same when developing and practicing the art of the decisive moment (yelling freeze)?....LOL! Whatever technique you use, it must be working since I've seen many of your very impressive shots Kurt. I bet PJ's all over the world would love the ability to stop split second occuring events, so that they can get the shots for their editors .

 

As an aside, I still feel an Expo disk may be just as effective and quicker to use than a gray card for taming the excessive warm output of the M240. Simply hold an oversized Expodisk in front of whatever lens is mounted and quickly press the shutter and you're basically good to go.

 

Dave (D&A)

[otto.f]

Here is a nice example of Kurt's point:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/members/19365-albums5859.html

[sandymc]

This thread is about AWB.....

 

And what I pointed out was that if you use the M9 AWB settings on M240 AWB files you get identical images .....

 

ie. The M9 AWB assessment on the photograped subject is correct ...... the M240 isn't.

 

any wiser ?

 

If your concern is about AWB, then most of the discussion here about profiles is useless. If AWB is wrong, then a different profile might make the resulting image look a bit better or a bit worse, but does nothing to change the underlying AWB problem.

 

Only Leica can deal AWB issues. You best course of action is take a/b images that demonstrate the problem with the M and whatever other camera that include at least a grey card, preferably a GM24 test card, and send that to Leica. It needn't be a large part of the image, but should be large enough to use an eyedropper tool on. The problem is that without some kind of a clear grey reference in the image, it's impossible to know by just looking at two images which is more correct. Different isn't incorrect.

 

But be aware, there is no such thing as a perfect AWB algorithm.

 

Sandy

[Archiver]

I wholeheartedly agree. Leica digital colour just sucks.

 

The best colour I ever saw right out of a digital camera was the Konica-Minolta Dynax 7D's—an APS-C-format 6 MP DSLR camera introduced in Fall 2004. Someone who I consider well-informed suggested that was due to Konica's expertise in colour reproduction. I really wish Leica Camera would engage one or two of those people.

 

Some years ago, before my entry into the world of DSLR's, I saw an image on flickr taken by that camera. The skin tones were just gorgeous, and looked nothing like anything that came from my many small sensor cameras by Canon, Fuji and Casio. That single image spurred me to look into DSLR's.

 

And thanks for the LR calibration settings, I will give them a go for my M9.

[thighslapper]

 

Only Leica can deal AWB issues. You best course of action is take a/b images that demonstrate the problem with the M and whatever other camera that include at least a grey card, preferably a GM24 test card, and send that to Leica. It needn't be a large part of the image, but should be large enough to use an eyedropper tool on. The problem is that without some kind of a clear grey reference in the image, it's impossible to know by just looking at two images which is more correct. Different isn't incorrect.

 

But be aware, there is no such thing as a perfect AWB algorithm.

 

Sandy

 

1. Done ..... weeks ago

 

2. I haven't got a problem with the colour profile ...... once WB is corrected the images look ok ...... possibly just a tiny bit too much red .... but only sometimes

 

3. Of course I'm aware of this ..... and have read up extensively about the subject weeks ago ...... and camera calibration ...... and visual percetion with the eyes image processing adaptations that make all this so problematic and subjective. The whole business is a minefield ....

[lct]

Remember the first M9 pics folks.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[pico]

As an aside, I still feel an Expo disk may be just as effective and quicker to use than a gray card for taming the excessive warm output of the M240. Simply hold an oversized Expodisk in front of whatever lens is mounted and quickly press the shutter and you're basically good to go.

 

The disc reads light falling on the lens, but not the light that actually enters from the scene. Its success depends upon the light within the scene being the same. To me, it is amazing that it works in so many cases. Perhaps that speaks to our environment.

[Raul]

I've always been wary about awb even on dslrs. I don't use a gray card even though i know how very helpful it can be if one needs accurate skintone info. What i do as a compromise is to manually set wb to whatever is the lighting condition of the moment (cloudy, daylight, or tungsten in my case). Btw, i dont have the new M. Just the old m9. Works great. I shoot street and travel and find greycards to be a bit of a drag but i think there's always time to manually set wb for every scene just as fast as how we can change iso or change saturation from standard color to bw. A few seconds really.

 

It's an informatve thread andi hope the manual wb settings are ok otherwise i have several friends waiting for their Ms who will be terribly disappointed thanks for starting it, Kurt

[D&A]

The disc reads light falling on the lens, but not the light that actually enters from the scene. Its success depends upon the light within the scene being the same. To me, it is amazing that it works in so many cases. Perhaps that speaks to our environment.

 

I too was surprised with how often the expo disk got it right. When issues existed early on with M9 images taken under tungsten/incandecent light, I exhaustively compared those taken with a gray card vs. an expo disk in a variety of these lighting senarios. These included other forms/color temps of light entering into the picture, such as natural sunlight. Although matched pairs of images taken with the gray card vs. expo disk were often close but yet somewhat different, I often felt the expo disk came closer to representing the scene with regards to the M9 & tugsten light. I attributed it to the very neutral, often cool color temps the expo disk was known for in being effective in taming the overly warm images prior to taking a white balance.

 

That's why I was suggesting trying the expo disk with the M240. I guess one should try both (such as in Kurt's case) and compare.

 

I too was also going to suggest trying one of the WB presets as just mentioned with the new M digital as a partial solution. If it comes down to using a gray car vs. expo disk for "on the run" images of people in street photography where the lighting is fairly consistent, for myself personally, the expo disk pointed at the scene is somewhat quicker. Just hold over the lens and click, done...and doesn't need to be repeated unless lighting conditions change significantly.

 

Dealing with this overall issue though is important and it's a very good thread/discussion.

 

Dave (D&A)

[otto.f]

Remember the first M9 pics folks.

 

Exactly!!

[pico]

I shoot street and travel and find greycards to be a bit of a drag

 

Perhaps someone will market 18% grey shirts so that we need only point the camera at a sleeve.

[Jeff S]

Perhaps someone will market 18% grey shirts so that we need only point the camera at a sleeve.

 

No problem. Other options, too.

 

Jeff

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Gary Clennan]

No problem. Other options, too.

 

Jeff