lifetime camera?

[erg]

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The M8 is built from materials that can last for decades, for sure. The problem is: Whatever is based on computer technology (like processors, memory, ports and displays), will be outdated after about 5 years.

 

Imagine what a digital camera could be capable of, if the memory, processor and firmware could be as powerful as software thats currently running on your desktop computer. You can also expect faster ports and batteries with manifold of the lifetime current batteries have.

 

Imagine how outdated your pretty M8 will look, in terms of IT, after ten years.

 

Nevertheless, IMHO the M8 is the longest lasting camera within all digital cameras.

[Guest stnami]

Nevertheless, IMHO the M8 is the longest lasting camera within all digital cameras

........... you must have got one of the early ones 1987 model perhaps, a couple of sheep short of a sheep station type of comment............

[ho_co]

Sorry about that. I was thinking of KR25 which was 15DIN.

George--Don't apologize.

 

I was just saying that I remember an older Kodachrome than you do--back before I had even heard of DIN.

 

--HC

 

PS--What if someone had asked whether you considered a Minolta SRT-101 a lifetime camera? The company doesn't exist any longer.

 

What if someone had asked whether you considered a Hasselblad 1600F a lifetime camera? Parts are no longer available.

 

Leica's record is better than any other manufacturer's in regard to continuing to repair equipment after it is discontinued. But the other side of that argument is that electronics 'age' faster, in the sense that new capabilities are always coming on line.

 

But look at us now. We're all saying, yes, our M4's and M6's will probably last longer than our M8's--but what does that mean? We won't be using them because "we've gone digital." And even that assumes that film is still available. The Riga Minox is still today a beautiful instrument, a camera for a lifetime if you will--but Minox film can be hard to come by.

[xrogers]

I expect I'll use my M8 for at least five years, and more likely closer to ten (as a second body, assuming Leica's next digital M has enought improvement for me to buy it). At that time, I expect to sell it, or more likely pass it on to one of my kids (assuming the value has tanked by that time). I won't bother keeping it as a third body, if the first and second are better.

 

I expect most M8s will be used for the next 15-20 years (with a few holdouts going even longer). I expect M8s to be repaired for no more than the next 15 years or so, so after that you'll be good until something in the electronics fails. I think that's a pretty amazing potential lifespan in digital terms!

 

--clyde

[dojuve]

thanks everybody for your input, i appreciate that.

[lars_bergquist]

I discussed this matter with the Solms people during the development of the M8. I pointed to the old LTM cameras, which could be upgraded to a nearly incredible extent as time went by. Even film M cameras have been upgradeable in some ways, especially as you could put new and better films in them! So I said that given that the digital M would be a superb camera (which it is), it would be a pity if developments in microelectronics would leave it hoplessly stranded in a few years. So it too should be upgradeable.

 

And what was the message from Solms? "This is our thinking too!"

 

What is more, they implemented it. The M8 is upgradeable. Even the sensor. Proof? They called in the first cameras and upgraded the sensor when the banding issue came up. Is there a more central upgrade imaginable? Case closed.

 

Answer: No – just as a Leica I was not the last word in 1936. Yes – just as you could send it to Wetzlar and receive it back as a IIIa.

 

All this presupposes of course that the company survives. BUT part of the resposibility for that rests on us. Support the good work, by constructive input in fora like this one, but most of all by buying products.

 

The old man from the Age of the Screw Thread

[ddp]

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Lifetime? Ronald said it best - it's the images you make with it NOW that will be for your lifetime.

 

Anything digital now is merely planned obsolescence. Top of the line Nikon DSLR's I were using 5 years ago are gathering dust. The market changes far too rapidly....when the M9 or whatever the next variation is called, the M8 will fade further back from the pack. That doesn't mean it won't be a viable image making tool in 5 years, but this is a high turnover market. I expect my M film bodies to be lifetime cameras...but digital will always have a replacement just around the next corner.

[chetccox]

What is more, they implemented it. The M8 is upgradeable. Even the sensor. Proof? They called in the first cameras and upgraded the sensor when the banding issue came up. Is there a more central upgrade imaginable? Case closed.

 

The sensor was never changed. Some of the surrounding components on the 'motherboard' were. Any upgrade to the sensor in the future would most likely require completely new electronics to support it.

[carstenw]

Chet, although the sensor itself did not need changing, it is my understanding that they swapped out the sensor board, because the timing chips on it needed replacing. I am not certain about that though.

[lars_bergquist]

Lifetime? Ronald said it best - it's the images you make with it NOW that will be for your lifetime.

 

Anything digital now is merely planned obsolescence.----

 

Obsolence is planned because it pays – for the manufacturer. Yes, real progress is made in electronics, but to a very large extent, obsoleting has been done by adding 'features'.

 

In the world of watchmaker mechanics, features were precious, because new gears and levers had to be crammed in. In the world of microelectronics, features are a dime a dozen, because you program them in.

 

The limiting factors are two. One, the physical user interface. How many buttons has the outer surface of a camera room for? (Ask Japanese makers of compacts.) Our fingers have not grown much daintier during the last 100 000 years or so. Neither has our neural bandwith increased. Cameras have to be built to the capacities of users who are still Ice Age hunter-gatherers.

 

Second, relevance. Where do options stop being thrilling and become confusing? Remember the digital wristwatch? Digital watches are nothing new. One, still extant, was built for Swedish king Charles XII around 1700 A.D. They never caught on, because to our senses, time is analog, not digital. Also, car and aircraft designers have learned that we read analog instruments quicker than digital. Man is the measure, not of all things but of all of his own things.

 

The old man from the Age of F-stops and Shutter Speeds

[chetccox]

Chet, although the sensor itself did not need changing, it is my understanding that they swapped out the sensor board, because the timing chips on it needed replacing. I am not certain about that though.

 

That was my reference to 'motherboard'. The first paragraph was a quote from a previous poster but it didn't turn out quite right. He implied the sensor was changed, making it a 'lifetime' camera. I don't believe the camera is upgradeable, nor was it designed to be. Future sensors will require completely new supporting electronics.

[erg]

........... you must have got one of the early ones 1987 model perhaps, a couple of sheep short of a sheep station type of comment............

 

Stnami, is that some kind of Aussie saying ?

 

Off course the new M8 still has to prove it's durability. But, based on the M lenses and it's loyal community, I anticipate a relatively (5-10 years) long durability for the M8. Most M useres don't expect a camera that's bulked with features and autofocus.

 

You don't want your Patek Philippe with Bluetooth and a color LCD display, right ?

[Guest stnami]

................. so what time is it...................I gave mine to a consultant and now if I want to know the time I have to pay.........still the accountant says its a costly but worthless tax deduction

[rwfreund]

I think that it depends on the dimensionality of upgrade.

Firmware, we all have seen demonstrated is a useful way to upgrade the camera.

The sensor is a costly component, but I doubt that there is much push to increase resolution. Once sensors passed 6Mpx, then I left film behind.

A futuristic view is that perhaps, if it is within the relm of lens technology, to develop a non distorting wide angle lens with extremely high resolution and a fairly wide aperature (f/2 or better). Only then might much higher sensor resolution be useful, since cropping alone would replace the need for most of the longer lenses. That being said, there is a loyal following for some of the "classic" lenses, not because they were that perfect, but because they were imperfect and their imperfect character lent a special character to the images they produced. Much of that imperfection can be dialed-in with firmware.

The limit of software image processing upgrades is constrained by available memory (both firmware storage and ram, and the internal processor performance.

All this is possible, but ir will take time. The only part that is limited by the laws of physics is the lens itself.

-bob

[fotografr]

Before we can answer your question, we need to answer another one: How long is a lifetime?

[joachimeh]

... from birth to death (if not thrown away earlier)....

 

 

Before we can answer your question, we need to answer another one: How long is a lifetime?

[earleygallery]

In terms of will you be able to use an M8 in the same way that you can use a Leica LTM or M2/3 today, I expect the answer is no.

 

Most electrical equipment fails after a period of time - how long do you expect your TV set or CD player to last for example?

 

Whereas the fully mechanical cameras can usually be repaired with donor parts or even new parts machined, it's not usually possible to make up a new PCB or whatever to fix an older electronic camera, or at least not commercially viable.

 

I think of the M8 as a working photographers tool. Its there to do a job, and with an expected lifetime of probably 3-5 yrs for a pro (longer for an amateur maybe) by which time it will be upgraded etc.

[Ecaton]

The M8's body and all mechanical parts seem to be made to LAST A LONG TIME, outliving the sensor, processor, memory, ports, displays, which will be outdated after some 5-7 years (and the electronic components maybe after 10 years), by a great deal.

If technically possible and economically meaningfull an option allowing to upgrade the "old M8 body" with state of the art digital and electronic components/modules could be interesting. Ecologically, it would make sense anyway!

 

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