What's the verdict on the M?

[tashley]

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Firstly, brilliant review, thanks

 

Secondly I have used the D800E extensively and RX1 but not the M240. I agree with your conclusions 90%. I avoided the lens issue somewhat on the D800E by only using the 35mm f1.4G and 85mm f1.4G but they both lag Leica sgnificantly wide open and at f2.

At f2.8 the 35mmG is a cracker with bags of character as well.

 

The RX1 I find has extremely neutral colours and it took me time to find my Lightroom balance. Nikon DSLRs tend to be over saturated which looks good sometimes but not others. Canon is a bit over warm and "reddy". It grieves me that Canon sensors have not caught up with the competition, especially on DR. I would love to return to such characters as the 50mm f1.2 and 85mm f1.2 at some point in the future.

 

I liked the M9 colours, although a bit weird. They were quite easy to deal with in Lightroom to get a pleasant result.

 

I am not convinced about the M240 yet, so I have decamped from Leica M digital and am using a M6TTL and having great fun BTW. I wish the digital Leicas had the same form factor.

 

Perhaps when ex-demo or second hand Ms start to show up I will take the plunge.

 

The best Leica digital I have ever used is the Monochrom. It's pictures brought a smile to my face at every ISO. However I am nervous going with CCD again, which had also put me off the S2, although the second hand prices are getting better and the though of using those flawless lenses does excite.

 

Thanks again for the review and keep us posted.

BTW I presume your are also tashley on dpreview ?

 

Thanks Harold, it does sound as if we mostly agree. And I am indeed the tashley of whom you speak!

[tashley]

Well balanced review...thanks, Tim.

 

Any additional comments/insights regarding b/w output in particular? I prefer the M8.2 to the M9 in this regard, and would be interested in your impressions, particularly in print. The magenta-ish bag suggests possibly closer approximation to M9 output.

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

I'm only a part time black and white shooter and I figure that I can get pretty much where I want to go from most any colour file, so individual colour cameras' renditions don't worry me too much when it comes to b&w conversions. But it isn't my major. You are right about the bag: the is some magenta and I might even just start to use all my old UV/IR filters since I'd be using at least a UV filter anyway. Be interesting how that looks through the EVF...

[Dirk Mandeville]

In your opinion. Which is exactly my point.

 

. . .

 

I'm not saying your parameters are wrong, no one is wrong. I'm saying they're unique and very individual, as they are entitled to be. But so are mine, and in mine I can and do compare M240 with RX1 and X100s. To claim other people's comparisons "have no meaning" is pure folly.

 

Ok, fair enough. Which brings us back to the latter part of my original post that started this back and forth between us, which apparently you missed the first time:

 

So, in answer to your question, yes, I think it is worth an extra $4300 to be able to use just about any Leica lens ever made (including the superb Noctilux and the new 50 APO Summicron) and focus using a classic rangefinder mechanism. Not to mention the Leica build quality. (I have owned a Sony digital camera, and I can attest that the build quality is nothing to write home about).

 

So, after stating my belief that the comparison was pretty much meaningless (which I still believe to be true), I then restated my post comparing the two and accounting for the price difference. Interestingly, the person whose post I originally responded to seems to agree with my point about the comparison with which you seem to have such a hard time:

 

It`s not so much about M versus RX1. The latter is just an example of innovative ingeneering, of pushing the boundaries with the smallest, best in class IQ FF digital camera ever. Something Leica did with the M9. My point really is that the Leica M, X2, MM, DLux6 are technically simply not good enough for the prices Leica is asking and that money should be used more in the camera development department than for brand and product positioning efforts (which Leica does admirably well, I have to admit).

 

And I believe there is a lot of merit to this statement. Although I think we all know that Leica charges a luxury premium for all their products. Is the Nocti really worth $11,000 when CV sells the Nokton for $1,000? Yes, there are differences. But $10,000 worth of differences? Hardly. Same can be said for many Zeiss lenses that perform as well as their Leica counterparts, for half the cost.

[George Furst]

Nobody is talking about using the excellent R lenses on the M. Since receiving my M (typ 240) almost two weeks ago my R lenses have not left the camera (yes, the first day I did try out my M lens). Since that first day I have used the 21-35 Vario Elmar ASP, 35-70 f4 Vario Elmar, APO 100/2.8, and the APO 280 f2.8 with the new M and been really enjoying these lens and not having to change lens as much as with the M9. I even forgot that it was a rangefinder camera as I have been enjoying the EVF with the focus aid. This was expecially helpful with the Summilux 80/1.4 lens where I have always had problems with being spot on with the focus. I find the focus peaking very helpful especially with the challenging macro photography too. Without the focus aid I would have never been able to take pictures with the APO 100 and the Elpro attachment. The time is perfect for this as the profuse flowering of spring is upon us here in Korea (and elsewhere in the world). Is anyone else using their R lens? If so please give us your opinion. I am having a ball with mine and this is the reasom I was so excited with this new addition the the M line. I can finally use one camera for both M available light pictures and R telephoto and macro that no one can do with any other camera. For me this versalitiy has been a revolution. No longer do I need to carry two camera bodies when I go on my photo expeditions with my Leica friends here in the "land of the morning calm". (Not so calm lately!)

 

In closing I do wish to say something about price. When the new M was announced, and I heard of it's features, I expected the price to be at least $2000 more than the M9 I purchased two years ago. I did not think that I could afford this new camera. I also remember that at first the price was not easily available. I was sure then that this would be outside of my financial ability. When the price was announced I was really surprised. It was even less than the last Leica that I purchased! I am sure that others experienced this. I was truely shocked at the time by how reasonable the price was!

[poppers]

L

[Guest tanks]

Nobody is talking about using the excellent R lenses on the M. Since receiving my M (typ 240) almost two weeks ago my R lenses have not left the camera (yes, the first day I did try out my M lens). Since that first day I have used the 21-35 Vario Elmar ASP, 35-70 f4 Vario Elmar, APO 100/2.8, and the APO 280 f2.8 with the new M and been really enjoying these lens and not having to change lens as much as with the M9....

 

I think part of the reason not too many people are talking about the R lenses is the fact that they are no longer manufactured, and not a lot of people have them.

 

I actually looked at used R lens prices. The zooms are outrageously priced if one can find them, and I am not going to pay M prime lens prices for equivalent R primes. If I need to go longer than 135mm, then I should be shooting with my Nikons not the M.

[jaapv]

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Quite a few R lenses - specifically the APO series and the newer zooms are unmatched by current other brand offerings. The primes often outperformed equivalent M lenses.

[k_g_wolf ✝]

 

In closing I do wish to say something about price.

 

![/b]

 

 

PLEASE, PLEASE, never do that again! If they read this, it may change things again.

If you figure in inflation ect. its not reasonable at all.

 

 

Best

GEORG

[k-hawinkler]

Quite a few R lenses - specifically the APO series and the newer zooms are unmatched by current other brand offerings. The primes often outperformed equivalent M lenses.

 

 

unmatched seems to be the magic word - in performance and price.

[jaapv]

unmatched seems to be the magic word - in performance and price.

I wish I could afford the Apo-Modul system...

[k-hawinkler]

I wish I could afford the Apo-Modul system...

 

 

Me too. The last time I checked on ebay the asking price for the complete set was $30k.

[pnoble]

tim,

excellent review. it verbalizes my experience with the M much better than i ever could.

today i had another day of M shooting in a challenging environment (a city in saudi arabia) and i came back with a lot of frustrations, mainly caused by the ergonomic nightmares of the camera, all described in your review. after a while trying (stupidly again) LV and the EV i just used the RF. due to the bright sun light and the permanently changing conditions i had to use the awkward non-properly working +/- mechanism often which resulted in many under/overexposed shots. maybe my finger skills?

a few hours ago i started to compare my files to D800 files (taken in parallel today by someone whose photographic skills i trust very much) and.....they beat the M files in resolution (obviously), micro-contrast, dynamic range (even at base iso it seems, very challenging shooting conditions though) and let us not mention iso >= 1200.....just no comparison. the only issue where the M files beat the D800 files is corners of wide angle shots.....

i shall (try to) return the M to the dealer, it is just not worthwhile (for me) and get the MM instead.

i am very disappointed by leica engineering and by those M-style induced/excused compromises.

as an analogy in the automobile world take a look at the porsche 911. it is also somewhat constrained by design and rear engine positioning but nevertheless porsche has managed to recreate it in the 991 series as a super-modern and super-functional sports car which faithfully carries the 911 DNA. contrarily to what porsche did with the 911 it seems to me that the M240 is more backward than forward looking from the design and engineering viewpoints.

all the best, peter

 

I can't comment on the M 240 v. M9 since I only have the latter, but I can absolutely vouch for the 991 versus the 997.2 (version) 911. If there was that level of upgrade in the M, I would already have placed my order, but it just doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read so far. More like the 997.2 facelift v. the 991.1 in 911 terms, it would seem.

[tashley]

I can't comment on the M 240 v. M9 since I only have the latter, but I can absolutely vouch for the 991 versus the 997.2 (version) 911. If there was that level of upgrade in the M, I would already have placed my order, but it just doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read so far. More like the 997.2 facelift v. the 991.1 in 911 terms, it would seem.

 

I'm not so sure - I think it is a MUCH better camera - in a different league, despite the niggles.

[microview]

I am indeed the tashley of whom you speak!

 

But not the Guardian music critic as well?

[Voigt]

Although I think we all know that Leica charges a luxury premium for all their products. Is the Nocti really worth $11,000 when CV sells the Nokton for $1,000? Yes, there are differences. But $10,000 worth of differences? Hardly. Same can be said for many Zeiss lenses that perform as well as their Leica counterparts, for half the cost.

 

You should also remember that the last percent of quality may cost 10 times more than all the previous quality features combined, because only the most practical, cost-effective features are included in most cameras . That's why an 18MP Leica M9 costs so much more than an 18MP Canon Rebel. It's those often very slight differences that differentiate the common from the extraordinary, the reasonably priced from the exclusively priced. So, is it worth it? I think it is... for those who can comfortably afford it. For the rest, there's always the Canon Rebel. It's a great camera for the money.

[lupico]

I just got my new M 240 but it had to be calibrated because none of my lenses were able to properly get focussed using the OVP. But I carried it to Solms myself and it was done within 1,5 hours. Now everything works fine and I am very happy it performs well.

 

Should you be on the brink of ordering or thinking about alternatives, you might like to look at my own Leica M report Leica M Typ 240: To buy or not to buy, that is the question. | Lupico "Leica M / Typ 240: To buy or not to buy, that is the question..."

 

I was really pleased with the Leica Service all in all. But I was told there that there was a problem with the strap lugs coming loose on some new Ms. I did not want to leave mine there for a longer time and my camera seems alright, so I may be taking a slight risk...

This is already being discussed in another thread

so I won't go into that any further

[bybrett]

I was really pleased with the Leica Service all in all. But I was told there that there was a problem with the strap lugs coming loose on some new Ms. I did not want to leave mine there for a longer time and my camera seems alright, so I may be taking a slight risk...

This is already being discussed in another thread

so I won't go into that any further

 

Seems Leica has taken the risk...

[bocaburger]

I can't comment on the M 240 v. M9 since I only have the latter, but I can absolutely vouch for the 991 versus the 997.2 (version) 911. If there was that level of upgrade in the M, I would already have placed my order, but it just doesn't seem to be the case from what I have read so far. More like the 997.2 facelift v. the 991.1 in 911 terms, it would seem.

 

I think the analogy holds quite well. The 991 is slightly bigger than the 997. The M240 is slightly bigger than the M9. The 991 has electric steering, the manual transmission is mechanically based on a PDK with a clutch pedal and stick, the handbrake has been replaced by an electric button, and the exhaust note is piped into the cabin. The M240 has electric framelines, Live View, an EVF and Movie Mode. The 991 has the make, model AND "911" badged on the deck so even the uninitiated can tell it's a Porsche. The M240 has an oversized red logo. Both the 991 and M240 have been redesigned aimed at winning a broader market, and in the process, both have lost some of their former visceral bauhaus elegance and simplicity of purpose.

[radfilm]

I own a 997 and I have had 2 911s before that.. I can easily say that the 997 is the best version I ever owned.. I also have a M3.M6,M9 and I can also say that the M9 is the best of all three in technology, so I can only imagine the new M having the same feeling.. I have held and used the camera and it felt modern yet it had one leg into the past designs .

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lupico]

Seems Leica has taken the risk...

 

The risk is on me if I drop it. They will probably say "Told you so...";)