March LFI debunks CCD vs CMOS theory

[FrancoisG]

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Interesting article in LFI about new M. Some of the files released that people complained were flat and had the CMOS plastic look, were actually M9 files by mistake. The Leica look, comes from the lenses not the sensor.

[macjonny1]

Interesting article in LFI about new M. Some of the files released that people complained were flat and had the CMOS plastic look' date=' were actually M9 files by mistake. The Leica look, comes from the lenses not the sensor.[/quote']

 

Some of that look may also be more contrasty images from M9 due to lower DR. Same was said about Monochrom when it came out if I recall. I am sure someone can increase contrast and make an M file look like an M9 file.

[MarkP]

Same was said about Monochrom when it came out if I recall.

 

Much of the complaining about fairly flat Monochrom files was because they didn't understand that ideally one should have a flat, neutral raw conversion file to be the canvas on which one then works one's magic

[macjonny1]

 

Much of the complaining about fairly flat Monochrom files was because they didn't understand that ideally one should have a flat' date=' neutral raw conversion file to be the canvas on which one then works one's magic [/quote']

 

I agree I have one!

[thighslapper]

All my tests show that when corrected for the aberrent embedded white balance settings on the M240 the resulting files are indistinguishable from M9 ones.

 

There is a slight apparent increase in contrast with detail on the M9 ...... but this is probably more related to the lower resolution of the M9 ........ and it is very difficult to alter the images in a lossless way to compare them at the same resolution......

 

Once Leica get the embedded profile and white balance issues sorted I am sure this is one rather irrational view that will disappear......

 

Yes... the 'Leica' look is all lenses ...... and processing.....

[rosuna]

Leica look or canvas?

Leica canvas as a different thing than Canikon canvas?

 

If the files look similar, but with more resolved detail and wider dynamic range... that is great!

[batmobile]

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LFI is not impartial and they would have reason to want to get everyone excited about the new M's CMOS sensor.

 

FWIW I think there is a difference between CMOS and CCD rendering, not that I care very much. Great images have, I believe, been shot on a CMOS sensors;)

[kkcsm]

FWIW I think there is a difference between CMOS and CCD rendering, not that I care very much. Great images have, I believe, been shot on a CMOS sensors;)

 

I also don't think it's terribly important... The sensor is only one of the many things that changed between the lens and the SD card in the new M. The sum of the parts is what is important and it appears that they have gotten that substantially right.

[johnbuckley]

I just spent a week in Mexico shooting side by side with my son, who has a Canon. I was pleasantly surprised by just how well the Canon rendered images -- bright, colorful, and the Canon lens he used was quite good. But there was clear, unmistakably different look in the rendering of the two cameras. Leica may be using the same kind of sensor as Nikanon is. But I can attest that my new M is very consistent with the image quality I got out of my M9 and M8, and very, very different from the CMOS look of the Canon I could do direct comparison with.

[jaapv]

LFI is not impartial and they would have reason to want to get everyone excited about the new M's CMOS sensor.

 

FWIW I think there is a difference between CMOS and CCD rendering, not that I care very much. Great images have, I believe, been shot on a CMOS sensors;)

I have been reading LFI for twenty years ore more, and whilst they are certainly firmly pro-Leica, I have not caught them bending the truth once.

[dwbell]

"March LFI debunks CCD vs CMOS theory."

 

In other news;

 

"Night follows day."

 

They were hardly going to say it was rubbish, were they? They've been saying for years that there's no advantage to CCD.....

[J12]

Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but I've been interested in understanding why I still prefer images from the M9. (Especially at base ISO.) Possibly old news to some here, but what I was told by an engineer far more versed in the subject than I will ever be is as follows:

 

 

"In terms of image quality CCD delivers a cleaner image. CMOS imaging sensors require a higher level of noise filtering and processing. Especially at lower illumination. Sony has introduced more advanced CMOS imaging using a technology called back light illumination. They own this technology and license it to others. With this technology the photons get into the photodiode of each pixel faster and don't have to travel as far within the semiconductor substrate. This gives better quality CMOS imaging compared to front illumination, better sensitivity and less noise. Nothing will replace the image quality of CCD, but CMOS offers great flexibility in terms of functionality and cost."

 

 

This would seem to imply that the higher level of noise filtering and processing could be a contributing factor to what people term 'the CMOS look'. Perhaps why CMOS images look waxy and appear to lack the clarity and crispness of CCD.

[sblitz]

wow ..... well it is only a matter of time before the counter flood of posts taking you to task arrive! personally i think this is all much ado about nothing .... how many great and near-great photos have you seen where you are aware of the film and/or sensor or anything else other than the photo's ability to deliver with impact what the photographers was trying to say. i have the m9, i like it and for the past several years i have been told by leica and others it is the pentultimate camera for artistic vision. although on the leica blog there appears to be a lot of photographers using the m6 & bw film.

[jdlaing]

"March LFI debunks CCD vs CMOS theory."

 

In other news;

 

"Night follows day."

 

They were hardly going to say it was rubbish, were they? They've been saying for years that there's no advantage to CCD.....

 

That's backwards. Day follows night.

[J12]

wow ..... well it is only a matter of time before the counter flood of posts taking you to task arrive! personally i think this is all much ado about nothing .... how many great and near-great photos have you seen where you are aware of the film and/or sensor or anything else other than the photo's ability to deliver with impact what the photographers was trying to say. i have the m9, i like it and for the past several years i have been told by leica and others it is the pentultimate camera for artistic vision. although on the leica blog there appears to be a lot of photographers using the m6 & bw film.

 

It's just my opinion. Others will disagree I'm sure. That's what keeps the wold interesting. It would be a boring place if there was only one view on everything.

 

I shoot as much film as I do digital. You're totally right about the photograph being more important than the medium for people viewing the image. No argument there and no substitute for interesting content.

 

However, there is an inherent look to CMOS images that just doesn't do it for me. And for the photographer, I do think choice of medium is an important consideration prior to the act of taking the photograph itself.

[jaapv]

Still, it was funny that there was a spate of comments that the M240 images looked " too CMos" when there were M9 images (accidentally) mixed in between them, as the OP mentions...

[k-hawinkler]

Well, it's by and large a mute point.

I don't expect Leica going back to CCD for their M line of cameras.

[ho_co]

it is the pentultimate camera for artistic vision.

 

Penultimate, Steve? The ultimate being what, this perhaps?

 

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(image from George R. Lawrence: Fotograf mit Riesenkamera - SPIEGEL ONLINE, courtesy Corbis)

[algrove]

Well, I finally received my issue of LFI today, nicely all smashed up on one corner so much that it took pliers to separate the pages that somehow got nearly glued to together by water. Yes, I know I can get it online, but I like to hold a magazine in hand from time to time, even with pliers.

 

Too technical for me, I like to take images. What I got most out of the 3/2013 is that Jaap uses the name of the new camera incorrectly by saying, M240, when we should say M or M (Type 240). Sorry, Jaap (post #16 above), but you were the last one to use that incorrect term if we are to believe mjh.

 

So now I need an S so I can better use my long R lenses. My wife would have read this article too, but she does not like reading LFI with heavy metal pliers in her hands.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[macjonny1]

Well, I finally received my issue of LFI today, nicely all smashed up on one corner so much that it took pliers to separate the pages that somehow got nearly glued to together by water. Yes, I know I can get it online, but I like to hold a magazine in hand from time to time, even with pliers.

 

Too technical for me, I like to take images. What I got most out of the 3/2013 is that Jaap uses the name of the new camera incorrectly by saying, M240, when we should say M or M (Type 240). Sorry, Jaap (post #16 above), but you were the last one to use that incorrect term if we are to believe mjh.

 

So now I need an S so I can better use my long R lenses. My wife would have read this article too, but she does not like reading LFI with heavy metal pliers in her hands.

 

Sorry it's Typ 240 if you want to be eurocool