thighslapper Posted March 14, 2013 Share #1 Posted March 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Any one else think that the default auto WB calibration is set too warm ..... by more than enough to make it a nuisance ??? I have been increasingly concerned about this and today did some comparisons...... M9 and M, both with 50/2.8 lenses, f4, both set on auto white balance, photos taken seconds apart with exactly the same framing......... I won't bore you with the pics which are a bit mundane..... but the M9 photos look ok to me and the M 240's don't.... In LR4 the M 240 DNG's are all consistently 5-700k higher .... and when the auto setting parameters for the M9 are used instead they look identical to the M9's (not surprisingly) and the colour profile looks natural...... I have only checked this for natural daylight outside ..... others have posted interior shots which look better under mixed lighting than the M9 usually manages. Whilst I can easily correct this in PP, I think Leica should re-visit this in the firmware. Of course ..... I may have a rogue camera..... but judging from other posted pictures... I doubt it..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Hi thighslapper, Take a look here M 240 White Balance. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 14, 2013 Share #2 Posted March 14, 2013 You could always test this by shooting a picture with each camera with a gray card in the scene, and then using the auto white balance eye dropper on the gray card in LR to see what LR thinks is the proper WB for the scene. Be interesting to know what kind of a difference you got between the two on the same scene using a gray card. I suspect that Leica will still be tweaking these things a bit with firmware updates. I agree with you that some of the example pictures I have seen the WB looks to be a little warm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartDS Posted March 14, 2013 Share #3 Posted March 14, 2013 Regarding WB on a CMOS sensor, it will be different to a CCD, bearing in mind I use a Canon DSLR before I rediscovered the 'joys of using a RF camera', there are some tweaks you can do in PS to get a more natural feel to your images. And I never use AWB, to me it gives a muddy print, the colours are a bit off. I'm sure there will be plenty of disagreement with my point of view, but it's just my feeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted March 14, 2013 Share #4 Posted March 14, 2013 Regarding WB on a CMOS sensor, it will be different to a CCD, bearing in mind I use a Canon DSLR before I rediscovered the 'joys of using a RF camera', there are some tweaks you can do in PS to get a more natural feel to your images. And I never use AWB, to me it gives a muddy print, the colours are a bit off. I'm sure there will be plenty of disagreement with my point of view, but it's just my feeling. It's not to warm. Problem is only red color and to bright spots, for example on skin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 15, 2013 Share #5 Posted March 15, 2013 thighslapper- I understand a upon taking a look at the images I do feel they are a bit too warm. As far as other CMOS sensors, I am going to try a somewhat direct comparison with my RX1 to see how they compare for what's worth. I will not post anything, but want to see the differences. My FF 5D3 CMOS images do not seem too warm to me. Of course taking oranges and reds down do help, but everyone has their own idea of what's right. I recall even Overgaard long ago had said that on his M9 images he takes skin tones down because of too much orange, if I recall. But in Denmark people tend to have more pale skin than they might have in say Florida. As Jack Davis suggests try the Auto button when reviewing an image in ACR for the first time in order to see what it does with an image. Sometimes it's good and sometimes not, but worth a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 15, 2013 Share #6 Posted March 15, 2013 I don't think it's a CMOS issue - and in a lot of mixed light situations I've found it better than the M9. HOWEVER, I also agree that the current AWB settings produce results that are a little warmer than I'd like. Again - let's send in the feedback to Leica! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share #7 Posted March 15, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't think it's a CMOS issue - and in a lot of mixed light situations I've found it better than the M9. HOWEVER, I also agree that the current AWB settings produce results that are a little warmer than I'd like. Again - let's send in the feedback to Leica! Yup ..... I have sent an email to Leica. The issue is quite apparent when viewing on the LCD screen, so it reflects the native output of the processor ....... whatever algorithm is being used is pushing the colour temp up too much. It is much more apparent in landscape shots and with red brick buildings .... looks like youre taking pics at sunset/sunrise all the time.... If they can get it consistently right for the M9 surely they can for the M240..... there is no point having auto WB if it doesn't work properly..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 15, 2013 Share #8 Posted March 15, 2013 I also feel that the pictures out of the camera are a little yellow looking and the reds not quite right. However we are only at the second generation of production FW and there is probably a fair bit more fine tuning to come. I have been trying to make a series of ICC profiles to work on C1, with Gretag Macbeth charts but not doing very well, as I am not sure C1 is picking up all the attached camera data from the DNG files. I do wish Phase One would get their finger out and add the M to supported cameras, otherwise I am going to have to learn LR4 Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share #9 Posted March 15, 2013 You could always test this by shooting a picture with each camera with a gray card in the scene, and then using the auto white balance eye dropper on the gray card in LR to see what LR thinks is the proper WB for the scene. Be interesting to know what kind of a difference you got between the two on the same scene using a gray card. I suspect that Leica will still be tweaking these things a bit with firmware updates. I agree with you that some of the example pictures I have seen the WB looks to be a little warm. When the same colour temp and tint are applied to the M240 images that is present in the 'good' M9 ones the colour histogram in LR4 is virtually indistinguishable from the original M9 one. I've never been entirely convinced with the grey card business...... it only gives a guide to the colour balance in an area the size of the card in the place where it is put ......... you get the same issue using the dropper on different grey/neutral bits of a picture ....... WB varies all over the image and is often counter-productive..... Anyway, the main issue is that for general outdoor use, compared to the M9, WB is set too warm from what I can see. Looking at isolated pictures does not show up much of a difference ...... but comparing shows a significant anomaly..... M9, M240, M240 corrected to M9 values. First is M9 out of camera Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/200549-m-240-white-balance/?do=findComment&comment=2272032'>More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share #10 Posted March 15, 2013 M240 out of camera Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/200549-m-240-white-balance/?do=findComment&comment=2272033'>More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted March 15, 2013 M240 set as M9 values in LR4 Whilst 'correct' white balance is in the eye of the beholder...... I am sure you cannot argue that 5800K is correct for a typical dull grey overcast UK day..... .... a bit of variation I am happy to accept and correct, but I feel this is just too far off 'normal' to be acceptable..... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/200549-m-240-white-balance/?do=findComment&comment=2272034'>More sharing options...
Ecar Posted March 15, 2013 Share #12 Posted March 15, 2013 Thanks for this comparison. Very interesting. However, like Chris, I found that the Auto WB in mixed lighting shows a substantial improvement vs. the M9 - or the M8 for that matter. Let's hope they don't mess this up when they tweak the FW... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy2 Posted March 17, 2013 Share #13 Posted March 17, 2013 Just for fun, I've spliced half of the M9 image onto half of the M240 image, to which I applied a (slight) curves adjustment in Photoshop. At least at this resolution, the results look pretty indistinguishable to me. We could play the "guess which side of the shot is from which camera" game if you like...! – but for what it's worth, the M9 "pop" does seem to be more a matter of curves-style contrast than anything more fundamental (which is what all the users who have both cameras are telling us anyway.) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/200549-m-240-white-balance/?do=findComment&comment=2273897'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 17, 2013 Share #14 Posted March 17, 2013 It may well be a LR profile issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgcm Posted March 17, 2013 Share #15 Posted March 17, 2013 I agree with Jaap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share #16 Posted March 17, 2013 It may well be a LR profile issue. No. The images look like this on the LCD The difference if obvious Its even more marked in Aperture. Auto WB...... certainly for overcast skies is set 5-700K too warm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 17, 2013 Share #17 Posted March 17, 2013 I don't think it's a CMOS issue - and in a lot of mixed light situations I've found it better than the M9. HOWEVER, I also agree that the current AWB settings produce results that are a little warmer than I'd like. Again - let's send in the feedback to Leica! Agree-send feedback to Leica. For everyone's benefit, where should these emails EXACTLY be sent so they are not wasted, so to speak? Suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted March 17, 2013 Share #18 Posted March 17, 2013 It may be a change in Leica's color philosophy. Remember the differences between Panasonic and Panaleica cameras? Essentially the same engines but the Panasonic images were tuned more "lively" which many thought was because of different target owners. Something about European eyes preferring less red. And, yes, we liked those Leica colours and I hope to see that tint again - when my M arrives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trond Posted March 17, 2013 Share #19 Posted March 17, 2013 No. The images look like this on the LCD The difference if obvious Its even more marked in Aperture. Auto WB...... certainly for overcast skies is set 5-700K too warm. I just vent outside to check with my M. Conditions are bright sunlight and blue sky. Out of camera AWB shows up in LR as 4600K, and gives a slightly bluish look. The daylight setting in LR gives 5500K and gives a too warm look. On my calibrated monitor a manual setting in LR at 4900K gives a more natural and pleasing look. However, the LR eyedropper shows that the out of camera whites are in fact neutral. Best regards Trond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 17, 2013 Share #20 Posted March 17, 2013 trond-Thank you-good analysis to me. So we should wait for the M profile in LR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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