New M and old super-wide

[douglasf13]

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Well...

 

.... (please don't misunderstand the following, and perhaps someone will believe me that I am not too fond of Leica-bashing, but....)

 

you pay 6.200,-€ for a camera + some thousands for some lens, only to concede, that it's not really a big deal anymore, if your photos are spoiled by red edeges on the right side of the photo - when it was more on the left side with the M9?

 

You need software to manipulate the results of the most expensive lenses you can buy for money (and some other lenses as well) to make them usable?

 

I beg Leica's pardon, but I say no to this attitude.

 

We had the experience since the M8, more obvious for the M9 and customers stayed patient. There was a firmware remedy for the M9, which I think worked, and I do not complain about the red edges of the M9 - anymore (about one and a half years since it came out in 2009 there was something to complain about).

 

Jenoptics was responsible for the electronics of the M9, not Leica - though customers paid Leica, not Jenoptics. The sensor was bought from Kodak though costumers paid Leica, not Kodak.

 

Now the sensor and the electronics are made by Leica. They knew what they did and they knew about the problem. I remember precisely what was said in certain interviews, when the M 240 was announced at last Photokina: the colour-shift problem does not exist anymore. Since September 2012 there was some time to cope with it.

 

Now we see: the problem is still there.

 

Today I can only say: Leica failed. If there is no technical solution for this problem, they failed to tell the truth.

 

Keep in mind that medium format digital backs are even more expensive, and they've been dealing with the same issues, which is why C1 has had the ability to correct color shift for a while now (it's newer in LR.) Heck, even the new Sony RX-1, which has a fixed 35mm lens on a FF sensor, has a little bit of color shift that could use correcting.

 

The bigger issue to worry about is smearing at the edge of the sensor, and Leica has done a fine job with this in the M9 (and presumably the M 240.) There's only one non-Leica camera out there with a FF sensor that can use M lenses, the Sony VG-900, and it not only has color shift issues, but the periphery of the sensor turns into a smeary mess with some M lenses. That's the much bigger worry.

 

My point is simply that, now that color shift is so easily fixed in a couple of the major raw converters, rather than needing to deal with a separate program like CornerFix, color shift has essentially become a non-issue for me, and I'd prefer to correct it with a button click in the raw converter, rather than have it hard-written to the raw (especially since the type of correction written to the raw is sometimes changed with firmware.)

[01af]

O1af—I'd be fascinated to hear how your Rokkor works when it's coded as a 28 mm elmarit asph.

I tried several manually selected lens codes with my W.Rokkor-PI 21 mm lens, including the Elmarit-M 21 mm's and the Elmarit-M 28 mm Asph's—and none of them makes any difference ... as if the codes, or the associated profiles, just weren't there. There's always the same bright magenta stripe along the right edge, plus a faint one along the left edge, with both firmware versions 1.1.0.0 and 1.1.0.2. My Novoflex LEM/MIN adapter is uncoded (and it brings up the 50/75 frameline pair BTW), so no physical 6-bit lens code to interfere with the manual selection (which according to Ecar wouldn't happen anyway).

 

However all other lenses I tried, including 21 mm and 17 mm retro-focus super-wides, a fast 50 mm, and a 200 mm telephoto, have no issues at all, at any aperture, even with no codes selected. As a matter of fact, the new Leica M most definitely is a wonderful tool to resurrect all those legacy 35-mm-format SLR lenses for digital use including, but not limited to, R lenses—and currently, it's the world's only tool that can do this, due to the unique combination of short bayonet flange distance, full-frame format, and live-view (umm, okay, with the exception of the Sony VG-900, but that's a video camcorder). Can't wait to take delivery of my own M camera ... must return the borrowed sample later today.

 

 

... but expecting Leica to fix things for non-Leica lenses isn't reasonable!

Of course not. In particular, I don't expect Leica to do anything to make my W.Rokkor-PI 21 mm lens usable. I don't need it; I have other (better) lenses in this focal-length range. I tried it just for curiosity.

 

 

You need software to manipulate the results of the most expensive lenses you can buy for money (and some other lenses as well) to make them usable?

 

I beg Leica's pardon, but I say no to this attitude.

Sorry, but I'm afraid you didn't understand what this attitude is about in the first place. Our attitude is—having fun exploring the very limits of the new camera.

 

As a matter of fact, the new Leica M is working admirably fine with all those expensive lenses. The—very few—exceptions we found so far are not exactly "most expensive lenses money can buy"

 

 

The idea that R lenses would be any kind of solution to super-wide is absurd.

No-one (except you) is having this idea. The Leica M doesn't need any "solution to super-wide," as there is no shortage of excellent Leica M super-wide-angle lenses. It's the other way around: the new Leica M is the solution for those who happen to own R lenses and want to be able to use them on full-frame digital. And this solution is working perfectly fine, with all wide-angle R lenses, including the widest—and fish-eyes, too.

 

Furthermore, the real advantage, of course, is not being able to use wide-angle lenses made for other systems—that's just a welcome side-effect. The real advantage is access to macrophoto and telephoto lenses.

[danielp11]

...

 

My point is simply that, now that color shift is so easily fixed in a couple of the major raw converters, rather than needing to deal with a separate program like CornerFix, color shift has essentially become a non-issue for me, and I'd prefer to correct it with a button click in the raw converter, rather than have it hard-written to the raw (especially since the type of correction written to the raw is sometimes changed with firmware.)

Hello,

 

probably I am just too stupid, but how do I do this in Lightroom 4.3? I can correct vignetting (changes the brightness) and eliminate purple (an green) fringing on high contrast edges.

I can put in also a color gradient, but this gradient follows straight lines and not curved ones, like it should be in this case, because the purple color shift shoud be round, like vignetting (the lens is build round).

 

So how do I eliminate these purple colorshifts in the edges with lightroom?

 

Hoping for an answer

Daniel

[jonoslack]

"cheap"? Maybe "not too outrageously expensive" might be more accurate

 

Certainly I'm very glad I've got mine...

 

Hi Chris,

 

$1600 to $1800 USD seems to be the going rate currently on Ebay.

I am not good at bidding, so the pay-it-now-price it typically is for me unfortunately.

I am glad I got my 80-200/4 though. It has become a favorite lens on my NEX-7.

Still fairly easy to focus and shoot handheld.

Certainly pretty costly. But not yet in the stratosphere as other R lenses seem to be.

 

Oh! Ouch! (I don't call that cheap) - I think I paid £499 for mine last summer - things have obviously changed. I love it though - definitely a cold dead hands lens.

 

all the best

[jonoslack]

HI There 01af

The Leica M doesn't need any "solution to super-wide," as there is no shortage of excellent Leica M super-wide-angle lenses. It's the other way around: the new Leica M is the solution for those who happen to own R lenses and want to be able to use them on full-frame digital. And this solution is working perfectly fine, with all wide-angle R lenses, including the widest—and fish-eyes, too.

 

Furthermore, the real advantage, of course, is not being able to use wide-angle lenses made for other systems—that's just a welcome side-effect. The real advantage is access to macrophoto and telephoto lenses.

 

I absolutely agree with all of this - I also think it's fun trying out the extreme oddities - had a lot of fun with some old Jupiter lenses my son is addicted to buying on ebay.

 

This game is one that lots of us have become familiar with using µ43 and NEX cameras - it's a new one just arriving at this place!

 

Nice to know that all the other lenses you've tried are okay I wonder about your Rokkor though - I know that there is still work going on to perfect some of the older Leica lenses - you might find that one of these works when it appears.

 

All the best

[jaapv]

So how do I eliminate these purple colorshifts in the edges with lightroom?

Plug-ins for Adobe Photoshop Lightroom | Adobe Labs

[chris_tribble]

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My two penn'orth is that I am enormously encouraged by what I see in results from the M with FW 1.102. The 28 cron asph had slight red edge problems when I used it with the prototype I had. It is now immaculate. See below. I am SURE that Leica are now working to fix the problems with older wides. I've not seen how results from the 21 lux look, but I imagine they're good as Leica will have prioritised their current lens series.

 

NB - these images were grab shots that I've chosen to show the issue under discussion, not pieces of high art

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[01af]

Nice to know that all the other lenses you've tried are okay ...

Yes, they are ... and "okay" here does not mean, "acceptable"—it means, "just perfect". I didn't try any R lenses because I don't have any. But the M's behaviour with my retro-focus Rokkor lenses makes me confident that the M will work just fine with any lens that was designed for regular use (i. e. no mirror lock-up required) with 35-mm-format SLR cameras—including all kinds of retro-focus super-wide and fish-eye lenses.

 

 

... I wonder about your Rokkor though. I know that there is still work going on to perfect some of the older Leica lenses—you might find that one of these works when it appears.

I am not aware of any old wide-angle R lenses that required the Leicaflex user to lock up the mirror. That's why I said, I don't expect Leica to do anything to make my non-retro-focus W.Rokkor-PI 21 mm lens work. It just is not on their agenda ... or at least, I don't expect it to be.

 

On the other hand, making the Leitz Super-Angulon 21 mm lenses for M bayonet work with the new M camera probably is on their agenda. I really wonder how this particular lens currently works on the M. Probably it looks similar to my W.Rokkor-PI ... after all, it's a similar design. And when they eventually sort this one out then maybe my lens will benefit as a side-effect.

 

But as I said—that's not important. I'm thrilled that all my regular SLR lenses work so well on the new M. I've been waiting for a digital full-frame solution for my Rokkor lenses for more than ten years, and now it finally has arrived. Yay!

 

 

 

Here's a sample picture I took with the Minolta MD W.Rokkor 17 mm 1:4 on the new M, uncoded, at f/8. It's a retro-focus lens from the mid-'70s. I reduced contrast and boosted the shadows a bit—the unprocessed picture has more contrast and deeper shadows. There are some colourful reflexes from the lens due to real harsh back-light but no colour shifts from the sensor.

 

 

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Leica M (Typ 240, Fw 1.1.0.2); Minolta MD W.Rokkor 17 mm 1:4; ISO 200/24°, f/8, 1/500 s

[rirakuma]

My two penn'orth is that I am enormously encouraged by what I see in results from the M with FW 1.102. The 28 cron asph had slight red edge problems when I used it with the prototype I had. It is now immaculate. See below. I am SURE that Leica are now working to fix the problems with older wides. I've not seen how results from the 21 lux look, but I imagine they're good as Leica will have prioritised their current lens series.

 

NB - these images were grab shots that I've chosen to show the issue under discussion, not pieces of high art

 

Sorry I'm not trying to derail this thread but Chris I like the colours on your pictures here. There doesn't appear to be any tint like I've seen on other samples, did you have to do extra color correction or was it a simple WB adjustment? Also to keep things relevant, the color shift is very minimal to non existent and can easily be corrected in post.

[Nick De Marco]

Does anyone here have any insight/experience of how the new M will do with some of the Zeiss wides? I have the Zeiss 18, 21 (f2.8 type) and 25 and wondered if I'm likely to be able to use these superb lenses with the new M without any issues.

 

Thanks

Nick

[jonoslack]

Does anyone here have any insight/experience of how the new M will do with some of the Zeiss wides? I have the Zeiss 18, 21 (f2.8 type) and 25 and wondered if I'm likely to be able to use these superb lenses with the new M without any issues.

 

Thanks

Nick

 

Hi There Nick

 

I'm sorry - I don't have these lovely lenses - so I couldn't test them.

I can't guarantee it, but I would be almost certain that if you can use them with the M9 they will be much better with the M.

 

All the best

[douglasf13]

Hello,

 

probably I am just too stupid, but how do I do this in Lightroom 4.3? I can correct vignetting (changes the brightness) and eliminate purple (an green) fringing on high contrast edges.

I can put in also a color gradient, but this gradient follows straight lines and not curved ones, like it should be in this case, because the purple color shift shoud be round, like vignetting (the lens is build round).

 

So how do I eliminate these purple colorshifts in the edges with lightroom?

 

Hoping for an answer

Daniel

 

As Jaap mentioned, you have to download the Adobe flat-field plug in for LR4. It allows you to choose a calibration shot of of your liking and applies either color shift fix or color shift and vignetting fix, whichever you choose.

[Nick De Marco]

Hi There Nick

 

I'm sorry - I don't have these lovely lenses - so I couldn't test them.

I can't guarantee it, but I would be almost certain that if you can use them with the M9 they will be much better with the M.

 

All the best

 

Hi John.

Thanks for that. I use all 3 with the M9 and apart from very ocassional purple fringing on some of them no issues. The zeiss 25/2.8 in particupar I have found to be exceptional on the M9, and often looks better to my eye than the Leica 28mm summucron asph which is my only other high quality (non cv screw) expensive wide lens.

Nick

[chris_tribble]

Sorry I'm not trying to derail this thread but Chris I like the colours on your pictures here. There doesn't appear to be any tint like I've seen on other samples, did you have to do extra color correction or was it a simple WB adjustment? Also to keep things relevant, the color shift is very minimal to non existent and can easily be corrected in post.

Hi - WB in the images is "As Shot" and the camera would have been set to Auto WB. It's REALLY good on the M in my experience thus far...

[luigi bertolotti]

Here's a sample picture I took with the Minolta MD W.Rokkor 17 mm 1:4 on the new M, uncoded, at f/8. It's a retro-focus lens from the mid-'70s.....

 

Good ! it makes grow my expectations for my Distagon 18 , also a retro focus from the '70s...

[chris_tribble]

Does anyone here have any insight/experience of how the new M will do with some of the Zeiss wides? I have the Zeiss 18, 21 (f2.8 type) and 25 and wondered if I'm likely to be able to use these superb lenses with the new M without any issues.

 

Thanks

Nick

 

Nick - planning to try the Zeiss when I get back to London - I've only had the production M for a day or so, so I've had no chance as yet. Trying to balance work and playing with the new toy at the moment. Just finished a major report for a client, so a little more time now...

[Nick De Marco]

Thanks Chris

[menos I M6]

Does anybody have tested for extreme lenses, as the Super Angulon, if there is a difference in metering light off the shutter curtain?

 

Is the metering off the shutter curtain in any way different from the former M bodies?

 

On some symmetric wide angle lenses, the lens itself shadows the path between the shutter curtain and the metering cell, so the metering is non functional or unreliable. I am curious, if anything has changed here (apart from the new metering option, using live view apparently).

[UliWer]

As far as I know metering from the "white spot" on the shutter curtain was not possible with the Super-Angulon on any M with light metering. I can't imagine how that would change with the new M since the position of the shutter has not changed. Though it should be possible to use the new other metering modes from the sensor with the Super-Angulon.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[menos I M6]

I was wondering, if the metering cell has been moved, compared to the M9.

 

I have a Carl Zeiss Hologon, that interestingly works in good light pretty well, metering with my Leica MP, while with any of the digital Ms, I have it does not work, as the lens' rear shroud is so close to the shutter, shading obstructing the path between shutter curtain and metering cell.

 

When trying to meter with the MP, the cutoff for light sensitivity is a lot earlier than normal.

 

I guess, the reason why it works in some light with the MP is, that the meter reads from a round circle, painted on the shutter curtain, which is vertically reaching further downwards, out of the way of the deep rear group of the lens.