Timmyjoe Posted February 19, 2013 Share #1 Posted February 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Want to run something past you all. I've got a Leica M8.2 that I picked up used a couple of years ago. Back then, Leica was really working the digital camera customer service. I sent them the camera right after I got it because it had the dreaded red pixels/green line at high ISO issue, and they not only fixed it for no charge, but they also gave me a one year warranty, and threw in a couple of UV/IR Cut filters for my Leica glass. I love the camera and have put around 15,000 shots on it so far. Have it set up for my liking with a grip, thumbs up and a diopter. Love the results. But when I'm on a job where I want to use the Leica (because of it's compact size and unobtrusiveness), I can't have my camera go down without a backup. And with the 1.3 crop factor on the M8.2, I don't really have a good back up. I like to travel with just a few lenses (35, 50, 90) and two bodies, but if I bring a film M as a back up to the M8.2, the focal lengths are all different. Was thinking about selling the M8.2 and investing in an M9/M9-P (but they are mostly gone now), and using a film M for a back up, at least the focal lengths would be the same. But the test shots I've done with an M9 and M9-P didn't work for me like the M8.2 shots. A low mileage M8.2 just became available to me, and it's in great condition, but I am just wondering if investing a few grand in an M8.2 at this stage is wasting my money. I get the sense that Leica, now that Blackstone is involved, is not nearly as interested in supporting the older digital gear. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. Thanks all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Hi Timmyjoe, Take a look here M8.2 investment??. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted February 19, 2013 Share #2 Posted February 19, 2013 I don't consider cameras as investments; they are tools for the job, and like all tools, must meet my needs and preferences. The value equation is personal. A year after my M8.2 purchase in 2009, I tested the M9 and preferred the M8.2 for a variety of reasons that I've covered elsewhere. But I, too, wanted a backup, so I picked up a mint used M8.2 at that time. I would do the same thing today if I had to do it again, but that's based only on my photo needs. I'm intrigued by the new M (weather sealing, 2m frame lines, Maestro processing and longer battery life, quieter shutter re-cock, and potential to use longer lenses). So, I'll test it when the time comes, and will of course weigh IQ heavily. But I wasn't surprised by delays, and I further expect there to be some inevitable bugs, as I always anticipate with any new technology. In the meantime, the M8.2s will suit fine. The cameras have paid for themselves many times over according to my value sense, and that has nothing to do with how much I'll ever get in trade or sale, if it even comes to that. However, I do insure my cameras for all circumstances (loss, breakage, etc.) at full replacement value, so if it craps out and Leica fails to support it, I'll be able to get a new camera with no additional cost. The insurance costs a mere few hundred bucks a year to cover over $23k in gear (and up to an additional 50% automatic appreciation, with no additional premium, if prices of new gear rise). No brainer...for me. Different strokes. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2013 Share #3 Posted February 19, 2013 Wait until the next generation of digital M will arrive soon. Then enough M9/M9P without that nasty crop factor will be seen on 2nd-hand-market. For getting a better price for your M8.2 you should sell it immediately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmyjoe Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #4 Posted February 19, 2013 Thanks for the replies. After testing the M9 and M9-P, I would not be purchasing either of those. I didn't like the image quality compared to my M8.2, especially when converting the images to B&W. I would not be looking at purchasing the M8.2 and thinking re-sale value, I like to buy tools and use them up, especially digital tools, as they lose their value almost instantly. I just wonder how long an M8.2 will keep functioning, especially if Leica scales back on their support of the camera. If I could be assured to get four more years out of both cameras (the M8.2 I have now and the possible M8.2 I would be buying) it would certainly be worth the investment to me, as that would represent 60,000 more images at my present rate of usage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 19, 2013 Share #5 Posted February 19, 2013 Hope you caught the paragraph I added on insurance, which may address your concerns. BTW, I always buy from a reputable dealer, with at least some warranty, even for used gear, despite the insurance. And I also prefer the M8.2 for b/w, among other reasons. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmyjoe Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted February 19, 2013 Hi Jeff, I did notice that. Who do you have your insurance through? I have my camera gear insured, but it's mostly covered just for loss or theft. I have not heard of insurance that will cover the gear if it stops working and Leica won't repair it anymore. And yes, the camera I am looking at would be purchased from a Leica authorized dealer with a 90 day warranty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 19, 2013 Share #7 Posted February 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a rider to my 'high end' home insurance through Chartis. I itemize all gear, which is covered for all loss, damage or failure to operate, without limitation (even if it's my own stupidity). Each policy is of course different, so one needs to conduct appropriate due diligence. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2013 Share #8 Posted February 19, 2013 Well, yes, but in that case the combo MM-M9 comes to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudingshain Posted February 19, 2013 Share #9 Posted February 19, 2013 Want to run something past you all. I've got a Leica M8.2 that I picked up used a couple of years ago. Back then, Leica was really working the digital camera customer service. I sent them the camera right after I got it because it had the dreaded red pixels/green line at high ISO issue, and they not only fixed it for no charge, but they also gave me a one year warranty, and threw in a couple of UV/IR Cut filters for my Leica glass. I love the camera and have put around 15,000 shots on it so far. Have it set up for my liking with a grip, thumbs up and a diopter. Love the results. But when I'm on a job where I want to use the Leica (because of it's compact size and unobtrusiveness), I can't have my camera go down without a backup. And with the 1.3 crop factor on the M8.2, I don't really have a good back up. I like to travel with just a few lenses (35, 50, 90) and two bodies, but if I bring a film M as a back up to the M8.2, the focal lengths are all different. Was thinking about selling the M8.2 and investing in an M9/M9-P (but they are mostly gone now), and using a film M for a back up, at least the focal lengths would be the same. But the test shots I've done with an M9 and M9-P didn't work for me like the M8.2 shots. A low mileage M8.2 just became available to me, and it's in great condition, but I am just wondering if investing a few grand in an M8.2 at this stage is wasting my money. I get the sense that Leica, now that Blackstone is involved, is not nearly as interested in supporting the older digital gear. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. Thanks all. I have an M8.2 with Elmarit 28 asph an I like the camera very much. As a Backup is use an M6 with 35 2.0 and an X1. With these cameras in the back I can solve any situation. If you like bw each of those cameras could produce stunning results and it is sometimes hard to point out which was X1 and M8.2. spiegellos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted February 19, 2013 Share #10 Posted February 19, 2013 Timmyjoe, it's refreshing to find another user who has the same perspective that I do. After thirty years of shooting Leica film, I recently returned to Leica digital after spending ten years with DSLRs. I bought an M8 and was so pleased with it I thought that an M9 would compliment it nicely. I found an M9P almost new for about 2/3 retail. I really like them both, but for different reasons. I'm not sure what your objection to the M9 is as I've found it to be quite amazing. For me, the primary reason for buying the M9 over another M8 was solely the larger file size. As far as the lens issue goes; yes, there is a 'crop factor,' but it's not a problem. I switch back and forth regularly. The frame lines in both bodies show the appropriate coverage for the lens you're using. while I've found that the 35-50-90 combo field of view is perfect, it's approximated with the M8 with the 28-35-75. A really good compromise three-lens kit for both bodies would be the 28-35-75 or 28-35-90, whichever you prefer at the long end. Being very cost-conscious, five of my seven lenses are nearly-new, but used CV. Shutters? I've never seen MTBF stats on these shutters in particular, but most pro body shutters now have a MTBF of 150,000 cycles. There's no reason that the Copal shutters in these bodies shouldn't give that kind of service life. I've seen chatter about 5k being a lot of clicks, and 12k is a "high use" body, but there are used M8s starting to show up for sale now with 30~40k clicks on them, which is what I'd expect of bodies that have been in daily use for some time now. I just don't see this equipment as fragile. I also have a 'pro' insurance policy on all of my gear which is quite the value. I need to shop it around though as I suspect there may be better coverage available. My advice would be to buy whatever body you think will suit your needs and run with it. If you're happy with your M8.2, you can save enough money buying another M8 or M8.2 over buying an M9 to buy lenses, insurance, and a trip pretty much where-ever to take the bodies on! The files out of my M9P are pretty amazing, though. Best of luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iedei Posted February 19, 2013 Share #11 Posted February 19, 2013 I have an M5 and a Ricoh GRD as my backups. As much as I love my updated M8: life is too short to buy 2 of the same camera! in no way would I consider any digital camera an investment. Look at the M9....when I was buying my M8 in August, M9s were $5500 used....now they are $4k or less used...and still falling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 19, 2013 Share #12 Posted February 19, 2013 The crop factor is not a problem if you don't need fast wides and the M8.2's IQ is second to none if you don't need high isos. I've ordered an M-240 but i like using some of my favorite 35s as standard lenses on the M8.2 and the 35mm framelines of the later are much more comfortable that the 50mm ones of most full frame Ms since the M4-P. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted February 19, 2013 Share #13 Posted February 19, 2013 I wouldn't consider ANY digital camera an investment. By the time a particular body might be considered by those who look back at such things, a collectible, it's life has probably been run. That said I remain happy with the M8.2 and still consider it the best digital for bw conversion. I am testing a Monochrom next week, but only to see how the files compare. I have no intention of spending $8K on any camera body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 19, 2013 Share #14 Posted February 19, 2013 Well, yes, but in that case the combo MM-M9 comes to mind. A good choice for some. The OP, however, said he wants a back-up, which suggests he doesn't necessarily want to carry two cameras around, although that's still possible. Each person of course has different needs and preferences. I personally don't need high ISO, don't shoot extremely wide, nor print extremely big. Within that context, I prefer 2 M8.2s for some of the following reasons that I've stated elsewhere, along with some additional ones based on your suggestion... Better b/w than M9 Allows flexible workflow, without need to carry extra color filters as with MM No need to carry two cameras, yet ready for color or b/w; any camera better than none Better frame lines for equivalent full frame FOV (as lct says) 2m frame lines Sapphire screen standard Chrome option standard Top display No M9 issues...card, buffer, red edge, sensor, etc. No issues with either of my M8.2s Much less expensive than your alternative But, that's just me; others will certainly prefer other options. And I might be one of them once the M240 goes through its paces. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmyjoe Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #15 Posted February 19, 2013 Thank you to everyone for their replies. I chose a poor word when I put investment in the title. As a "stupid" photographer, I know very little about investments. I guess I was more asking, is it worth the price? Talked in depth with someone I know at Leica this morning, and although the rear LCD is no longer available for the cameras, the shutter and the sensor can still be repaired (quite costly). So the only thing that would make the camera a boat anchor in the next four years is the rear LCD going out. And the person I talked to at Leica said that if the LCD went out on the camera, there was nothing they could do for it. If you are the original owner, which I wouldn't be, Leica will offer you a trade up to the M9, until their stock of those is depleted. So I have lots to consider. Thanks again for everyone's input. One other thing, in response to Jeff's post above, I shoot for a number of publications and my usual "work" kit is my Nikon D4, flash, D-700, wide zoom, tele zoom, filters, batteries, laptop, card reader, and misc. But many times jobs require me to travel by foot or public transport, and more and more I am shooting situations that are more intimate and I am working in much closer to subjects, and the existing light isn't too dark. In this situation, the twenty plus pounds of kit, and the intrusiveness of the big Nikon gear, is working against my purpose. My M8.2 kit consists of my M8.2, a 25, 35, 50 and 90 and this gives me exactly the coverage I am looking for (when factoring in the crop factor) and is unobtrusive, and quieter. I also really like the look of the 33 (just a skosh wider than 35), 46 (again a skosh wider than 50), 65 (a wonderful mild portrait look), and the 120 (which is great for portraits) that I get with the M8.2 crop factor. I would be carrying the second body with me, to use side by side, as well as a back up. The other thing is that, having sent my different Leicas in for service over the years, I know how long they can be gone, and having a second digital when one or the other is in the shop for weeks, allows me to keep using my M glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2013 Share #16 Posted February 19, 2013 Afaik you do not have to be the original owner if you deal with Solms (this rule is illegal in the EU in guaranty matters) and the trade-up deal is quite generous. You can find the official statement on this forum. So no worry there either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2013 Share #17 Posted February 19, 2013 Flat? rather the opposite. It is the most interesting B&W I have seen for a long time And the grain is the most film-like of all digicams if you push ISO beyond 3200. „Die Leica in der Hand“ — The Monochrom Goes Into the Snow | THEME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 19, 2013 Share #18 Posted February 19, 2013 …My M8.2 kit consists of my M8.2, a 25, 35, 50 and 90 and this gives me exactly the coverage I am looking for (when factoring in the crop factor) and is unobtrusive, and quieter. ... I would be carrying the second body with me, to use side by side, as well as a back up. ... Same favorit kit for me with 24 instead of 25. For a back up you might wish to consider the M8u which is an M8 updated to the M8.2 features. Can be had for less than the M8.2 with less chance to get the LCD issue if it is an earlier body as often. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmyjoe Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #19 Posted February 19, 2013 Am also looking at an M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 19, 2013 Share #20 Posted February 19, 2013 You won't have the same framelines as your M8.2 (optimized for ~2 meters) if you don't choose another M8.2, an M8u or the new M-240 though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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