Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 22, 2013 Share #61 Posted February 22, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I love my six year old M8, it continues to surprise me with the quality of it's files. I am also on the short list for the M240, however it needs to prove to me that there is a considerable improvement in IQ (over my M8) before I make that purchase. A considerable improvement over M8 files would be stunning IMHO I am in the exact same situation, very happy with my M8u. and the new M on order but it will have to prove its superiority before earning a place around my neck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Hi Erik Gunst Lund, Take a look here Managing Viewing the Best from M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 22, 2013 Share #62 Posted February 22, 2013 Eric, Thank you for the comments. First thing, let me make a correction. 9mm and 12mm in "diameter" is wrong, It should be "radius". OK, let's talk with something about image. I'm going to send Bert batches of image via e-mail. I will appreciate your comments too. May I have your e-mail address for delivery? Best Regards, Thomas Chen When you correct one single fault in your post, you make it seem like the rest was correct... I'm not able to comment on files from varius other Leica cameras that I have no experience with. I'm a keen Leica M8u shooter and thats it. Sorry Thomas, I really do not have the time to help you any further. Kind regards Erik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted February 22, 2013 Share #63 Posted February 22, 2013 (...) OK, let's talk with something about image. I'm going to send Bert batches of image via e-mail. I will appreciate your comments too. (...) Thomas, this is not how things are done here. I encourage you to submit your photographs to our nice Photo Forum which is here for that very purpose: you show us some of your pictures, our members look at them and those who have the time and the inclination will offer you their comments. If there are things you are particularly keen on receiving comments, it might be best to submit a few short questions along with your pictures. But: please do not send large batches; send one or a small series at a time; otherwise, you'll overwhelm both our members and the technical capacity of our forum. Also: Please do not ask people for their eMail addresses. This is not done here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share #64 Posted February 22, 2013 Also: Please do not ask people for their eMail addresses. This is not done here. Mr. Pop, Thank you very much for the advice, I undersatand now. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share #65 Posted February 22, 2013 When you correct one single fault in your post, you make it seem like the rest was correct... Kind regards Erik Erik, It is a misundertanding, I just straightened out what I made a mistake. Thank you veru much just the same. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share #66 Posted February 22, 2013 I am also on the short list for the M240, however it needs to prove to me that there is a considerable improvement in IQ (over my M8) before I make that purchase. A considerable improvement over M8 files would be stunning IMHO Mr. B&W, (please correct me if it is wrong) One thing for sure, Leica’s new product is always better than its predecessor. The IQ of M240 is a hot topic that draws attention of both incumbent M digital users and the prospects, also the focus of this thread. The IQ of M240 can be discussed from two aspects: 1. DNG file (or RAW file): Most professional and expert photographers are able to edit the DNG file and make any necessary adjustment to come up with the optimal result they want. Backed up by the advanced Durst Lambda printer, a superb print with outstanding IQ can be readily available. Based on the statement of Leica executive at an earlier interview, and the post of Mr. Theboch’s post in the forum, (I guess that Leica aims at them as the major target segment), it is believed that the IQ of DNG file will be favorably accepted by the professional and expert photographers. 2. JPEG file: This is the format of image file comes out straight from camera that a large part of amateur or consumer-type users browse on LCD screen. I have no idea whether Leica is working at creating a JPEG IQ likes what appropriately described by Mr. Jaap as “Kodachrome” or Mr. Bruce Fraser’s (The creator of Adobe Camera Raw) statement in his book titled “Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS5, 2011), page 42 quoted as: “….Camera vendors tend to apply a fair strong default tone curve to the default in-camera raw-to-JPEG conversion, perhaps in an effort to produce a default result that more closely resembles transparency film,……”. Therefore, let’s wait and see what Leica offers and make your own decision. As for myself, I’m quite happy with the color rendering in Mr. Guamy’ 2nd batch images, although larger file size is desirable for better evaluation. And how to perceive the image IQ from screen via our eyes is also another subject. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2013 Share #67 Posted February 22, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) JPG - DNG Expert?Amateur consumer types? A bit undifferentiated I would say - in the Leica world I know of very few users that routinely shoot JPG, and if they do there is a good reason, regardless of the level of expertise. After all, this is not rocket science. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share #68 Posted February 23, 2013 in the Leica world I know of very few users that routinely shoot JPG, and if they do there is a good reason, regardless of the level of expertise. After all, this is not rocket science. Mr. Jaap, You are so insightful. It is true that few users routinely shoot JPEG, however, quite a few users routinely browse JPEG files. As for me, I always shoot a lot by both DNG (or LRW for D-Lux) and JPEG. When time not permitting for serious editing, a good JPEG file comes to resue and DNG file just be something nice to have. That's the reason we anticipate the best output from both sides. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 23, 2013 Share #69 Posted February 23, 2013 It would be kinda hard to browse DNG files.... Your screen can only handle JPG.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share #70 Posted February 26, 2013 It would be kinda hard to browse DNG files.... Your screen can only handle JPG.... Yes, one cannot browse DNG files direct unless the in-camera Raw-to-JPEG convertor makes a JPEG image on the camera screen or via a post-processing software to come out of the JPEG, TIFF and others for browsing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share #71 Posted February 28, 2013 Thomas, 1] when Erwin wites about "unsharpness gradient" he does not write about bokeh here 2] "gradient" is the change of something along an axis 3] Erwin means the change of modulation (contrast) as a function of the distance to the center of the image at a certain spatial frequency (detail in the image) 4] a Modulation Transfer Function (like you show in your posted image) is the modulation of the image as a function of distance to the center inside the focal plane (!) 5] "bokeh" is the quality of the image outside the focal plane (!) 6] Conclusion: bokeh has nothing to do with the information you posted and the size of the sensor of the M8 This is an example of a faulty argument I referred to in my former posting. (And then I don't mention the fact that you again have zoomed in on a tiny detail of the process of photography without looking at the true reasons you can not create your ideal images) Ladies and Gentlemen, The title of this thread is “Managing viewing the best from M240”. Assuming Leica can kindly offer for M240 the best DNG quality as well as an in-camera raw- to-JPEG conversion that “more closely resembles transparency film”, next to be discussed are Leica lenses that make contributions to the best image quality. As an overture before further discussion, please allow me to present a few paragraphs quoted from literature. 1. “Photography, as a flat form of reproduction, is about representing the three-dimensionality of the physical world in sharp and increasingly unsharp planes”. [1] 2. “Leica lenses are also said to have a special kind of image-recording quality that is often compared with three-dimensional (3D) rendition or with pictures that convey a three-dimensional impression. This particular optical fingerprint is frequently discussed among Leica aficionados and collectors.” [2] 3. “The Bokeh concept originates in Japan….in terms of photography, it stands for the reproduction of unsharp area in the picture”. [1] 4. “Because points in the range of unsharpness create the impression of three- dimensionality, MTF data is also valid, in principle, for depth perception”. [2] [1] “Bokeh-A subtle extra”, Leica Fotografie International, 2005 (3), pp.40-47 [2] “MTF diagrams: those seductive curves!”, Erwin Puts, Leica M-Lenses-Their soul and secrets, 2002 (September), pp. 14-17 Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 28, 2013 Share #72 Posted February 28, 2013 Dear Thomas, MTF curves are always presented as measured or calculated in the plane of sharpest focus. Since Bokeh is a phenomenon defined outside the plane of sharpest focus, you need a three dimensional diagram including an axis with the defect of focus to say something about bokeh. Such diagrams exist in the optical literature. Below an example. Hopefully this solves your dilemma of searching for bokeh in MTF curves. Sorry for the dutch labels, I have included them for a lecture series on optics. They translate as detail = detail or spatial frequency. focus defect = defect of focus or distance from the focal plane modulatie = modulation or difference between white and black in the image negatieve modulatie = negative modulation Note that this is plotted for a single line through the optical center of the lens. You need a fourth axis for the radial distance to the center of the image, like in the diagrams you showed from the literature. With the words "in principle" in your point 4, Erwin implies an extension of MTF plots outside the plane of sharpest focus. My advise to look at more aspects of photography than MTF curves I would like to repeat here. I have no disagreement with the quotes you give on the fact that unsharpness can help in 3D impressions from photographs. It is among others a powerful artistic tool that is not unique to Leica lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #73 Posted March 1, 2013 Ladies and Gentlemen, The title of this thread is “Managing viewing the best from M240”. Assuming Leica can kindly offer for M240 the best DNG quality as well as an in-camera raw- to-JPEG conversion that “more closely resembles transparency film”, next to be discussed are Leica lenses that make contributions to the best image quality. Bokeh + MTF diagram = better 3D-like rendition? (1) Ladies and Gentlemen, Is the 3D-like rendition so important to users of Leica FF M camera (M6, M9, and M-240)? For me, it indeed is for “Getting the sharpness right is a must; mastering Bokeh is the icing on the cake” quoted from Olaf Stefanus [1] For Leica FF M user no matter a mother or a father, you would like to see the picture of your babies or children more vivid, much closer to the reality. You may also like to browse images with the same quality about pets or a beautiful bouquet. One just sets the aperture wide open and selects focal distance that lead to a short depth of field, he or she then gets an image of sharp motif so outstanding with an unsharp foreground or background around it in the image. This is the “Bokeh”, the concept is about the reproduction of unsharp areas in the image, together with a soft unsharpness gradient associated with a “pleasant” look [1]. Almost every FF M user has already mastered the skill and practiced it a lot. Lecia lenses those are famous of fascinating “Bokeh” rendition can be attributed to the slightly under-correct spherical aberration –through the lense, the marginal rays’ focal point is redirected towards the back but still remains closer to the lense system than the axial rays’ focal point (quoted from [1])-. When we watch a picture, we are looking at the image generated at the focal plane, a cross-section where photo energies are captured. Literally, the “Bokeh” is about the unsharpness in a relation to the sharpness on the focal plane. However, it is caused by the different focal points in the longitude direction (the axis normal to the focal plane) between marginal and axial rays, as indicated by Bert in this thread. As a matter of fact, Leica lenses have something inherent in offering a better “3D-like image” per se, in addition to the pleasant “Bokeh” already in place. Sailing towards this realm to discover “the best” could be something interesting. The act involves the applications of MTF diagram that I will talk about next time. [1] LFI 3/2005, pp. 40-47. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #74 Posted March 1, 2013 Dear Thomas, MTF curves are always presented as measured or calculated in the plane of sharpest focus. Since Bokeh is a phenomenon defined outside the plane of sharpest . I have no disagreement with the quotes you give on the fact that unsharpness can help in 3D impressions from photographs. It is among others a powerful artistic tool that is not unique to Leica lenses. Dear Bert, Thanks a lot for your advices. In fact, I understand that "Bokeh" is something on the focal plane. Please see my last post "Bokeh + MTF diagram = better 3D-like rendition? (1)" I'm trying to make the best of the limited knowledge I have trying to view the best from M240, partly for my own interest, partly because of my intention to convince my friends in "The Gang of Leica" here how versatile and how wonderful the M240 will be. They are in the precision machinery or semiconductor industry and used to acquire very expensive and sophisticated production facilities. Only hard evidence can persuade them, therefore, my manuscript in this thread could become some kinds of "academic literature" for them. Of course, I will take a broad view not the trivial on photography after I get the M240 featuring an output closely resembles transparency film. At that time I surely enjoy taking lots of picture with both M and R lenses. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted March 1, 2013 Share #75 Posted March 1, 2013 In fact, I understand that "Bokeh" is something on the focal plane. Thomas Chen If we agree that the "focal plane" is the plane of sharpest focus (see definitions in dictionaries and handbooks), bokeh is not on the focal plane, but outside the focal plane, for instance in the plane where the sensor is at the moment of exposure. On transparency film: that has its limits and qualities. The M 240 will certainly not produce images close to those from transparency film, unless you postprocess. Fortunately the dynamic range is much larger in the DNG files than in images from transparency film. I think it may be a good idea to step out of the past into the present when you buy the latest camera from Leica. Be pleased with the developments of Leica optics and the Leica philosophy of retaining the rangefinder, but try to create your look with present day technology. If that resembles transparency film, so be it, but don't expect Leica to have optimized the M 240 to produce images looking like transparency film. If they would have done that I would never buy an M 240! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 1, 2013 Share #76 Posted March 1, 2013 Ladies and Gentlemen, The title of this thread is “Managing viewing the best from M240”. If by 'best' you mean the ultimate settings for the ultimate image quality from the M240 the first thing you need is a tripod. Then look up everything that has been said about the M9, because the critical independant tests, such as Sean Reid, show that the M240 isn't any better than the M9 at the optimum settings. So it has all been discussed before, there is no uncharted territory, it is down to commonly used post processing skills. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightwrangler Posted March 1, 2013 Share #77 Posted March 1, 2013 ROTFLMAO This is one of the funniest threads on this forum. I feel like in a Monty Python sketch or a Dada performance. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted March 1, 2013 Share #78 Posted March 1, 2013 I'm glad you are having a good time, Mike. But help me out here: how many swallows does it take at a wingbeat frequency of 180 beats/minute to carry a hollow coconut containing a copy of "Introduction Formal Reasoning" all the way to Taiwan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightwrangler Posted March 1, 2013 Share #79 Posted March 1, 2013 I'm glad you are having a good time' date=' Mike. But help me out here: how many swallows does it take at a wingbeat frequency of 180 beats/minute to carry a hollow coconut containing a copy of "Introduction Formal Reasoning" all the way to Taiwan?[/quote'] It will never arrive, because in the parallel universe of this thread your poor coconut is going to fall from the edge of the world. But anyhow - you're a brave guy. Really Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share #80 Posted March 3, 2013 I think it may be a good idea to step out of the past into the present when you buy the latest camera from Leica. Be pleased with the developments of Leica optics and the Leica philosophy of retaining the rangefinder, but try to create your look with present day technology. If that resembles transparency film, so be it, but don't expect Leica to have optimized the M 240 to produce images looking like transparency film. If they would have done that I would never buy an M 240! Bert, Maybe your are right, let me think it over again. Thanks a lot! Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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