Available light problems

[Jdust]

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I bought a V-lux 4 because several schools banned me from using flash during sporting events. I'm having trouble finding a good setting for available light sports photos. Using the A setting usually gives me a 60th of a second shutter speed, which is too slow. A manual setting of 2.8 at 160 (800 ISO) does okay, but the camera has trouble focusing fast enough, and 800 ISO photos are too grainy when enlarged. Does anyone have any advice?

[Dennis Iwa.]

exept of buying a real camera?

[Jdust]

I have no idea what that response means.

[jaapv]

Well, basically he means that a DLux 4, as nice a camera as it is, is not particularly suited to this kind of subject. You need a camera with a faster lens, better ISO performance and a fast AF (or manual focus and the skill to use it). Basically one of the mid-range DSLRs or better.

[JDFlood]

You need something with a APS-C or larger sensor. So, if Leica is the brand, then X2... but no zoom, if a fixed normal lens is OK, then good choice. Still full sized sensor would be better... so an M. I'm just guessing you don't have 10 grand in your pocket. For something more affordable, I would recommend the Fuji XE-1, interchangable lenses (outstanding ones), not tremendously expensive. Compared to Leica. If you don't mind a big camera, DSLR, a Nikon D600 would be a good choice... or D800... but these are full blown big "I'm into cameras" cameras. Hope this helps, sorry the camera you have is great for point and shoot under well light conditions, but very under powered for what you want to do. JD

[skinnfell]

Indoor sports is among the most difficult thing to photograph, both technique-wise and equipment wise.

 

You are looking at all three enemies at one time: distance, low light and fast action. The V-lux takes care of the distance, but fails miserably in the other two respects. IT needs a LOT of light to freeze action (1/500th of a second or faster to freeze a running person).

That means that unless you are shooting in blistering sunlight you can pretty much forget about sports with the V-lux. Sorry.

 

It is not without reason that most sports shooters carry giant (and expensive) canon lenses. And the best lenses dont even have zoom.

 

In my opinion, leica doesn´t have any cameras at the moment that can do indoor sports, unless you are a real daredevil and get a M monocrom and 90/2 (12 grand please, and the 6 months to a year you will spend waiting for it to get delivered you can use to forget about color!). Even then you would have to be less than 20 feet from the athletes for full length portraits.

 

The cheapest camera I can think of that can come close to solving such a task would be the canon 7D.

Again, in my opinion, a 200mm with at least f/2.8 is the cheapest lens that will yield acceptable results from a distance. Most people then go for the 70-200/2.8. Both canon and nikon has these.

Camera and lens is probably going to run you $2500 at the very minimum. (others can maybe offer more precise prices)

 

 

Sorry about this, but there is a very good reason you see so many big white lenses at sporting events, they are canons "trademark."

[tobey bilek]

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Nikon D4, 70/200 2.8 Canon makes comparable stuff.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Jdust,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

You are asking some of the same questions people involved with photographing sports events were asking years ago when a lot of what people above have written about had not been invented or was not generally available.

 

So - In regard to your original questions, in terms of the equipment you DO have:

 

Photographing a dynamic situation in sometimes less than optimal light with equipment which is not always exactly what you think you need at the moment means you might benefit from adding a small number of inexpensive accessories which might SIGNIFICANTLY improve your photos.

 

The first, least expensive & most important is: YOU.

 

Years ago, before a lot of what people above are writing about was invented, photographers took plenty of really nice sports photos in worse conditions with worse cameras, lenses & films.

 

They did it by having a different mind-set.

 

Taking photographs is no different than playing tennis: The more you practice the better you will get. The more you practice the luckier you will get.

 

Practicing means looking at scenes & considering & trying options.

 

Also: Practice with your equipmnt when you are sitting anywhere doing nothing special. Including at home sitting & watching TV. Know all you can your equipment, how to use it & the options it offers you.

 

Also: Read what you can about photography in general as well as sports photography specifically. You may find a lot in older books which were written when a lot of today's equipment was not yet available or had not yet been invented & films & lenses were generally slower. The mind-set was different.

 

What I just wrote above is what matters most.

 

More to follow in my next Post.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Jdust,

 

There are some other accessories that are relatively inexpensive which may also help to improve your photographs.

 

One thing you might consider is a separate hand held meter.

 

On this Forum the topic of separate hand held meters or metering with internal meters built into cameras can sometimes be cotentious.

 

There are people who never, or virtually never, use any meter & encourage others to do likewise.

 

There are people who depend on what their on-board meter says without knowing how it operates or what it is metering.

 

And there are others.

 

I would say that a separate hand held meter can be useful in many situations to help to understand the lighting in a scene as well as to determine exposure. A separate hand held meter can often teach a lot about lighting. Even if you leave your camera at home & just go out sometimes & read various scenes that might be potential photographs.

 

You can learn:

 

The people who say you don't need a metet in many circumstances are often correct. There are a lot of scenes & places indoors & out where lighting is very consistent. You will be surprised.

 

You will also see that there are many places where a built in meter gives you the correct exposure without knowing what it covers or how it works.

 

But then - There are also other places & times where either of the above perspectives can give you less than optimal results - Where a separate hand held meter can be useful.

 

I would suggest a meter like a Gossen Luna Pro Digital F.

 

Other meters popular on this Forum which will do about the same are: Sekonic L398A Studio Deluxe III with its limited sensitivity and its sibling the Sekonic 308S a different meter with a more modern sensitivity range. There is also the Kenko KFM1100 which is essentially an updated & more modern Sekonic L398A.

 

And plenty more.

 

Meters & Metering are topics which would probably benefit this & many other Forums if they were investigated further.

 

Another somewhat contentious suggestion is a small, sturdy table tripod w/ soft non-marking slippers on its feet with a large ballhead & cable release.

 

Also a rigid lens hood. More for inadvertant impact/damage prevention than for flare control.

 

These are hightly portable, easy to carry accessories which can add much to picture taking ability.

 

A small sturdy table tripod with soft non-marking slippers on its feet with a large ballhead & cable release can be used against a wall or inside a doorway, against a rock or on a car with the engine off. Even on a table.

 

Against my chest it gives me + 2 stops of added stability if I use it with the cable release.

 

Well, enough for a start. What do you think?

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[philipus]

Welcome JDust. You write that the images are grainy when "enlarged". What size do you need the final image to be? And what will it be used for (internet publishing, printing etc)? Lastly, if you were to buy another camera, what would the budget be?

 

exept of buying a real camera?

 

This is totally unhelpful, btw.

[pico]

A Panasonic 4/3rd camera with a fast, fixed lens would work. You would have to pre-focus, but my bet is that you would do that well.

.

I use a 50mm F/.95. It is just fine.

.

[stuny]

James -

 

Welcome to the Forum and to Leica photography. I look forward to seeing your images in the appropriate photo section of the Forum, as well as comments throughout. Sorry for any snarky remarks youi might experience here, and fortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

I assume you keep the autofocus switch in normal mode and not macro. Leaving the switch in macro slows autofocus from slightly to considerably as the camera has a wider range to "hunt" through to achieve the highest contrast. Sometimes users inadvertently switch to macro which might be impacting you.

Let's expand slightly on Michael's typically excellent advice. Most indoor sports have pretty consistent lighting. So either taking in-camera readings before the action starts, or using a handheld meter to do likewise will reveal a manual exposure setting you can pre-select for the event. This might allow the camera to respond faster since it has one less thing to do.

Additionally, you might want to experiment with different ISO settings in similar lighting to your sports venue, and take a series of exposures of the exact same thing at different ISO setting. Then process the photos and inspect the results. The highest setting that is acceptable to you should be part of your set-up for the sports event.

[Peter H]

Some really good advice here already. (Ignore the snipers who have nothing useful to say.)

 

The only thing I'd add is this: when taking photos in difficult conditions, and indoor sports definitely qualifies as difficult, try adapting the type of photo to your equipment, rather than vice-versa. In other words, there may be some fascinating shots that don't depend on capturing a piece of fast-action at the split-second it occurs. There are some beautiful moments in sport when things happen slowly, when participants are still, thinking, preparing, reflecting...

 

The most important piece of equipment any photographer has is his or her imagination, which is usually able to overcome most of the limitations inherent in all photographic equipment.

[pico]

try adapting the type of photo to your equipment, rather than vice-versa

 

Excellent advice and bears repeating, thus the quote.

.