rfnoob Posted May 12, 2013 Share #161 Posted May 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) This happened to me today on my M9 and I did some testing based on the hypothesis that this is a result of a power supply issue. I'm pretty sure it's the battery because of the 3 batteries I have (all original), I only see this on one of the batteries in exactly the same conditions. Now there is still some banding in the significantly underexposed areas of the other 2 "good" batteries but it's only noticeable when I pull it up by +3 EV in post. With the "bad" battery, it comes up even when pulling it up by 1 stop. I'm going back to Leica to tell them about this and to get a replacement battery (hopefully at no cost since the camera is still under warranty). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 12, 2013 Posted May 12, 2013 Hi rfnoob, Take a look here Monochrom Banding Normal?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rfnoob Posted May 13, 2013 Share #162 Posted May 13, 2013 Upon further testing, I had made a mistake in my previous post. The banding occurs with all my batteries and happens whether I use continuous mode or single shot mode. As long as I fire it off again without waiting for the SD card to finish, I can get the banding to occur. This happens on both Extreme 32GB cards and Ultra 16GB cards and the regular 8GB non ultra, non extreme cards. On one of the blue 8GB Sandisk regular cards, the banding is a lot less noticeable but there is a little and on fewer of the pictures. The only way to prevent it is to wait for the light to finish flashing and wait another 2-3 secs before firing off the next shot. This means that for the Ultra and Extreme cards, I can only take a shot every 5 secs or so. It looks like the card writing is causing some interference to the CCD and the higher capacity cards are generating even more interference. This is now 100% repeatable for me. For my type of shooting, I can work around the limitations but definitely irritating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 13, 2013 Share #163 Posted May 13, 2013 Now it seems you have established a workaround. Congratulations! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfnoob Posted May 13, 2013 Share #164 Posted May 13, 2013 I don't see this behaviour on my MM so this must only affect some cameras. There must be some borderline insulation between circuits. I doubt if there is a firmware fix. Unless the fix is that you can only fire off a shot every 5 secs! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jffielde Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share #165 Posted May 30, 2013 To close the loop, Leica has responded and sent me a new Monochrom. They determined that my banding was repeatable, and that, while some banding is normal in all M cameras, mine was to an extraordinary and objectionable level. They therefore replaced my camera as defective. Having shot the new camera yesterday under the same circumstances as the old one, I can say my new camera is like it should be and the first was not. I can see no pattern noise of any kind pushed up to 3 stops, and I don't think I would see any at 5 stops push without looking for it (and even then only after underexposing considerably and shooting in continuous mode or buffer active). The banding now doesn't show up in Aperture at all, since Aperture can't push the files far enough to see banding with the new camera. My old Monochrom showed banding easily on many Aperture shots. It's clear from having both cameras that my problem was real, but Leica did right by me and replaced my camera. As a related aside, I also tested my M9-P (almost no banding) against a friend's M-9, and there was a somewhat notable difference there, too. My files pushed much more easily / farther without banding, but I wouldn't consider either camera "defective" or the results objectionable, as I did with my MM. In any event, it looks like there is some sample variation with this issue even on older designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjkotze Posted May 30, 2013 Share #166 Posted May 30, 2013 To close the loop, Leica has responded and sent me a new Monochrom. They determined that my banding was repeatable, and that, while some banding is normal in all M cameras, mine was to an extraordinary and objectionable level. They therefore replaced my camera as defective. Having shot the new camera yesterday under the same circumstances as the old one, I can say my new camera is like it should be and the first was not. I can see no pattern noise of any kind pushed up to 3 stops, and I don't think I would see any at 5 stops push without looking for it (and even then only after underexposing considerably and shooting in continuous mode or buffer active). The banding now doesn't show up in Aperture at all, since Aperture can't push the files far enough to see banding with the new camera. My old Monochrom showed banding easily on many Aperture shots. It's clear from having both cameras that my problem was real, but Leica did right by me and replaced my camera. As a related aside, I also tested my M9-P (almost no banding) against a friend's M-9, and there was a somewhat notable difference there, too. My files pushed much more easily / farther without banding, but I wouldn't consider either camera "defective" or the results objectionable, as I did with my MM. In any event, it looks like there is some sample variation with this issue even on older designs. I am glad that you have been able to resolve your problem. To some extend your old camera can be used as reference for "unacceptable banding". Would you possibly be able to upload the original dng used in this thread to dropbox or a similar service to be used as a rough reference by other MM owners Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 31, 2013 Share #167 Posted May 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) +1 And congratulations that you now have a properly working MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jffielde Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share #168 Posted May 31, 2013 Will do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jffielde Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share #169 Posted June 8, 2013 Here are samples at base ISO pushed 3 stops in each case. The first one with the prominent banding is the old Monochrom and the second cleaner one is the new Monochrom. Hope these help. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342215'>More sharing options...
jffielde Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share #170 Posted June 8, 2013 Same as before (please note that the mesh in front of the fireplace has some zig-zag pattern to it that somewhat confuses this test, but it's easy to see the banding difference (all horizontal as opposed to zig-zag mesh). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342232'>More sharing options...
wjkotze Posted June 8, 2013 Share #171 Posted June 8, 2013 Here are samples at base ISO pushed 3 stops in each case. The first one with the prominent banding is the old Monochrom and the second cleaner one is the new Monochrom. Hope these help. Thank you for the samples. Are both samples from a series that was shot in a rapid sequence ? Did you find any difference in image quality using the first shot of a series where the old MM should not have produced any banding ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 8, 2013 Share #172 Posted June 8, 2013 The banding in the first photo in post #170 is really bad. So I just shot a continuous sequence of 9 images (at which point the camera slowed to a halt) underexposed by 3 stops at base ISO, and then pushed them 3 stops. Banding: absent in #1&2 some by #3 Significant from #5 (and none of them as bad as in post #170) #1 Full [ATTACH]381033[/ATTACH] #1 100% crop Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #3 100% crop #5 100% crop #7 100% crop #9 100% crop This is something I would never do when using the camera. Fortunately I never use continuous or push files more than 1 stop or so (on global settings) - otherwise I'd be really pissed off! I've never had a banding problem with any of my Monochrom photographs. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #3 100% crop #5 100% crop #7 100% crop #9 100% crop This is something I would never do when using the camera. Fortunately I never use continuous or push files more than 1 stop or so (on global settings) - otherwise I'd be really pissed off! I've never had a banding problem with any of my Monochrom photographs. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342497'>More sharing options...
jffielde Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share #173 Posted June 8, 2013 All are later shots in continuous mode, where the problem universally occurred for me. There is no difference whatsoever between the first shot from my old Monochrom and the first shot from the new one. Both are as close to perfect as they can be. In fact, the first shot from both cameras is slightly cleaner than subsequent shots in continuous mode from the new camera. That is to say, I can see some banding in the new camera's files when pushed more than I ever would (at around 3 stops) that isn't present in the first shot from either camera. It doesn't really problem for me and it only occurs where my Canon 5d3 would also band. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jffielde Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share #174 Posted June 8, 2013 I'll do a little more testing if it helps to see if I can generate MarkP's banding. I think even my new camera might come close to that level of banding when pushed 3 stops. Again, that's nothing like the catastrophic banding in my first camera, but I'm not sure my new camera won't approximate MarkP's results. I'll check. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydarkroom Posted June 8, 2013 Share #175 Posted June 8, 2013 Any new changes with the new Firmware? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasf13 Posted June 8, 2013 Share #176 Posted June 8, 2013 Upon further testing, I had made a mistake in my previous post. The banding occurs with all my batteries and happens whether I use continuous mode or single shot mode. As long as I fire it off again without waiting for the SD card to finish, I can get the banding to occur. This happens on both Extreme 32GB cards and Ultra 16GB cards and the regular 8GB non ultra, non extreme cards. On one of the blue 8GB Sandisk regular cards, the banding is a lot less noticeable but there is a little and on fewer of the pictures. The only way to prevent it is to wait for the light to finish flashing and wait another 2-3 secs before firing off the next shot. This means that for the Ultra and Extreme cards, I can only take a shot every 5 secs or so. It looks like the card writing is causing some interference to the CCD and the higher capacity cards are generating even more interference. This is now 100% repeatable for me. For my type of shooting, I can work around the limitations but definitely irritating. My M9 exhibited similar behavior. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 9, 2013 Share #177 Posted June 9, 2013 I should add that I used a 16GB Sandisk Extreme Pro card ( 95MB/s). Will repeat later with some older 16 GB cards (20MB/s& 30MB/s) and post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 9, 2013 Share #178 Posted June 9, 2013 So here we go! M9 base-ISO 160 Sandisk Extreme Pro 95MB/sec Continuous mode, underexposed 3 stops, pushed 3 stops in LR Same problem, banding by 3rd frame. This is NOT an exclusive Monochrom problem! Again, I have never had a real-life banding problem with the M9. attached 100% crops of #1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 Original #1 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #1 100% Crop #3 100% Crop #5 100% Crop #7 100% Crop #9 100% Crop Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #1 100% Crop #3 100% Crop #5 100% Crop #7 100% Crop #9 100% Crop ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342963'>More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 9, 2013 Share #179 Posted June 9, 2013 Same as above but with SanDisk Extreme 16GB card (30MB/s) Banding by #3 Just posted #1 & #5 100% crops #1 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #5 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #5 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342964'>More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 9, 2013 Share #180 Posted June 9, 2013 Monochrom Sandisk 16GB (30MB/s) Banding again by #3 Just posting #1 & #5 100% crops #1 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #5 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! #5 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/196777-monochrom-banding-normal/?do=findComment&comment=2342967'>More sharing options...
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