Monochrom Banding Normal?

[k-hawinkler]

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did a test using the sandisk 16GB extreme pro (45MB/s) card.

 

Took 4 shots, each waiting for the red lamp to stop before taking another shot. The banding is gone.

 

Great, I think that proves there is something not working correctly in your camera.

Repair or exchange seem to be the options.

 

 

However, this is still a silly work around as I have to wait for a few seconds before taking another shot and this may not be practical in real life situation.

 

No disagreement here.

That camera isn't fit for duty!

[raumplan]

i further tested to take 5 shots in a row, in single mode, without waiting for the red light to stop. Here is the results:

 

1. at iso 320, no banding.

2. at iso 320, banding occurs

3. at iso 320, banding occurs

4. at iso 800, no banding!

5. at iso 1600, no banding!

 

I am not sure whether it is the noise at iso 800 and 1600 that cover up the banding but at least the photos are usable. The second and third shots are not usable at all.

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[wjkotze]

I have a MM that exhibits the same banding ( both in nature and severity ) than those shown in the opening post of this thread. A quick internet survey shows that this problem is not restricted to the MM and that various M9 owners are reporting the same problem.There is a surprisingly high number of posts scattered over various threads and different forums about this issue. It is maybe not a bad idea to start consolidating these posts in a single thread.

 

I have done extensive testing on my MM and can report as follows:

 

1. The problem is not random. I can produce and avoid it at will.

2. Banding only happens when you take a shot while the buffer is clearing. I cannot produce banding under any conditions if I allow the buffer to clear and wait a few seconds before taking the next shot.

3.The banding is only visible in the deep shadows of high dynamic range shots taken at base iso ( 320 ). The first part of this finding is obvious but the base ISO finding surprised me. I could not produce banding under any conditions using ISO 400 and upwards. My initial reaction was that the additional noise obscured the banding but I do not think that is the case for the following reasons:

 

-the noise difference between ISO 320 and ISO 400 is relatively small and yet I do not see any banding in my ISO 400 shots.

-my experience with banding is that noise can obscure it ,but you can always see the underlying pattern at high magnifications and yet I do not see anything at 400% magnification.

 

4. Slow SD cards reduces but never completely eliminates banding.

 

The above-mentioned findings may be specific to my sample but it can be a use-full starting point for other MM/M9 owners with similar problems. It will be interesting to get other feedback.

Edited March 28, 2013 by wjkotze

[Ib M]

My observations are exactly the same as wjkotze.

And when I do not have to take continuous pictures with either MM or M9, it is for me personally no problem.

[Malvolio]

Just a follow up on my issue, I received my M9 back after a remap of the sensor (for an unrelated red line issue) and so far fingers crossed the banding hasn't eventuated, even when I shoot two frames close together, ie whilst one image is still writing to a card. I have probably jinxed myself now...

 

I do agree though that continuous shooting tended to provoke it more than anything and at base ISO.

 

I think Leica need to look at this with some urgency. The fact that it is now being reported as occurring in their most expensive M camera should provide some motivation to fix it. Surely new firmware can sort it out?

[Guest borge]

Try with different memory cards.

 

I experienced some banding on my MM with a SanDisk UHS1 95MB/s Extreme Pro 16GB SD card.

 

After I switched to a Transcend 32GB 20MB/S Class 10 card I have never seen any banding again.

 

The SanDisk cards have a lot of circuitry that do some advanced parallell writing to the card. The older Class 10 cards don't have this, and it has been suggested that this type of parallell writing to the card might cause electrical interference which can cause banding.

 

I wrote to Leica about this recently:

 

I have been experiencing some issues with the Leica M Monochrom and I want to make you aware of these issues so that they can be adressed in a future firmware update of the camera (which I hope will be released soon as an update is long over-due):

 

1. When using Discrete mode (shutter) the camera frequently locks up. The battery needs to be removed for the shutter to re-cock.

 

2. The camera some times shows banding at higher ISO's. This appears to be random.

 

Regarding 1) This issue has been confirmed from MM owners since the camera was new. Every MM owner I have spoken to has the same problem. Still, though, almost 8 months after it initially shipped there has not been a firmware update that fixes this issue.

 

Dear Leica - this is not good serice and support. Let me remind you that the MM is the most expensive M camera that you currently are selling. Your customers (me included) expect more frequent firmware releases that fixes issues like this.

 

I am aware that Jenoptik writes the firmware for you for the M9/MM/M-E series of cameras. But that is no excuse. Leica is responsible in the end, not Jenoptik. If Jenoptik is slow you need to address them and make them do their part, and if they are not capable to - you need to find someone else that can.

 

And got this response:

 

Dear Mr. Indergaard,

 

we are still working on this issue with the new firmware. We will inform you when the new firmware is released.

 

 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / Kind regards

 

i.A. Lothar Luehring

 

Leica Camera AG/Customer Care - Support

Solmser Gewerbepark 8 / 35606 Solms / Germany

http://www.leica-camera.com / lothar.luehring@leica-camera.com

Telephone: +496442208-555 / Fax: +496442208-90606

 

So I suggest that everyone that experiences some issues with the MM to report their findings in an email to: customer.care@leica-camera.com

The more the better.

Edited March 28, 2013 by borge

[raumplan]

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I have a MM that exhibits the same banding ( both in nature and severity ) than those shown in the opening post of this thread. A quick internet survey shows that this problem is not restricted to the MM and that various M9 owners are reporting the same problem.There is a surprisingly high number of posts scattered over various threads and different forums about this issue. It is maybe not a bad idea to start consolidating these posts in a single thread.

 

I have done extensive testing on my MM and can report as follows:

 

1. The problem is not random. I can produce and avoid it at will.

2. Banding only happens when you take a shot while the buffer is clearing. I cannot produce banding under any conditions if I allow the buffer to clear and wait a few seconds before taking the next shot.

3.The banding is only visible in the deep shadows of high dynamic range shots taken at base iso ( 320 ). The first part of this finding is obvious but the base ISO finding surprised me. I could not produce banding under any conditions using ISO 400 and upwards. My initial reaction was that the additional noise obscured the banding but I do not think that is the case for the following reasons:

 

-the noise difference between ISO 320 and ISO 400 is relatively small and yet I do not see any banding in my ISO 400 shots.

-my experience with banding is that noise can obscure it ,but you can always see the underlying pattern at high magnifications and yet I do not see anything at 400% magnification.

 

4. Slow SD cards reduces but never completely eliminates banding.

 

The above-mentioned findings may be specific to my sample but it can be a use-full starting point for other MM/M9 owners with similar problems. It will be interesting to get other feedback.

 

 

Very fair and accurate findings I would say, but at iso 640 the banding still occurs if I don't allow time for the buffer to clear.

 

I have further written to Leica to express my concerns and disappointment. Once I have received a response I will share it with you guys here.

[raumplan]

Leica has responded and asked me if I shoot in discreet mode and asked for banding samples.

 

I told them I can't shoot in discreet as the camera keeps freezing and have sent them a clean sample and banding sample photos.

 

Basically whenever I shoot without waiting for the red light to blink I WILL get banding regardless of ISO and the type of SD card

[Ib M]

Leica has responded and asked me if I shoot in discreet mode and asked for banding samples.

I got the same question.

 

My problem was:

1. I have problems with my M Monochrome. I can not delete several images at a time, the camera is continue to "run", and can only be stopped by taking out the battery and then put it in again. No images has then be deleted.

 

Single images can be deleted without problems

 

2. The camera shows banding at higher ISO if I take a picture before the previous one has read the card. Which then is also the case with continuous images.

 

Meanwhile, I has purchased and tested Transcend - 8 GB - Class10 - SDHC on my MM on ISO 5000, 8000, 10000 and the problem of banding appears to be solved, just as the problem of delete several images on the memorycard in the MM.

 

I have send the Info to Leica

[raumplan]

For some reason the Transcend cards are not popular in my region, I have yet to buy one to try. Almost everywhere I go they only sell sandisk

[Nick_S]

For some reason the Transcend cards are not popular in my region, I have yet to buy one to try. Almost everywhere I go they only sell sandisk

I managed to find some 4GB Class 4 Transcend cards in a local computer shop -- the shop assistant couldn't believe I wanted something so slow...

 

Nick

[raumplan]

But here's the dilemma.... If we need to wait till the red light finishes blinking, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly faster card...?

[rscheffler]

It's debatable whether faster cards actually speed up the M9/MM's ability to write to those cards. The only way I've found to speed up writing to the card is to shoot DNG only rather than DNG+Jpeg, which I had originally done for the sake of editing workflow, but as a result, more often reached the buffer limit during dynamic situations.

 

Someone mentioned a UHS-1 card. My experience testing one from Transcend in my M9 was that it resulted in the worst banding of any cards I've tried.

[raumplan]

Finally I tried a Transcend 16GB class 10 class but it is UHS-1.

 

The banding is worst than the sandisk 16GB class 10 45MB/s

[raumplan]

Yes, continuous mode matters nearly nothing to me anyway - the mode just highlights the defect to make it easy for Leica to identify.

 

I'm supposed to hear something today. We'll see.

 

 

Sir, have you received any response from Leica, could you please share with the group if possible? thanks.

[jffielde]

Not a peep. I will gladly share once I hear something.

 

I would find anything short of repair to normal function completely unacceptable. Since it is under warranty, I can't imagine that Leica won't agree.

 

If Leica were to say after trying to fix the issue for two months in three divisions on two continents "it's fine, the banding is just an intermittent 'feature'," I could not accept that answer because it would put me in an impossible position: I couldn't sell the camera in good conscience and buy one that functions as it should, because I would know (as would any buyer upon testing) that the camera is defective. Again, since the camera is easily under warranty, I cannot imagine that Leica would disagree.

Edited April 3, 2013 by jffielde

[raumplan]

Not a peep. I will gladly share once I hear something.

 

I would find anything short of repair to normal function completely unacceptable. Since it is under warranty, I can't imagine that Leica won't agree.

 

If Leica were to say after trying to fix the issue for two months in three divisions on two continents "it's fine, the banding is just an intermittent 'feature'," I could not accept that answer because it would put me in an impossible position: I couldn't sell the camera in good conscience and buy one that functions as it should, because I would know (as would any buyer upon testing) that the camera is defective. Again, since the camera is easily under warranty, I cannot imagine that Leica would disagree.

 

Thank you sir. Leica is in further contact with me and I have sent them more photo samples. I agreed with the others that I can easily make a photo with banding at will! just set it to iso 320 and take a second shot in a series while the red light is still blinking! But the whole notion of having to wait 8 seconds between shots is extremely disturbing.

[Guest SUMOLUX]

Sorry for this rant in advance! No disrespect intended, but I need to get this off my chest:

 

It is deeply saddening for me to read these postings.. I was really set on getting an M-M, but I see Leica has learned nothing since the release of the M8 years ago, and the excuses they make are quite simply appalling.

 

Perhaps at the risk of comparing apples and pears, in medium format I have been using a HY6 and Sinar eSprit 65 for some years now. Never had a single white band, dark band, stripe, dead pixel, line, jam up or anything out of the ordinary....Have also never heard of such issues from other users.

 

Yet Leica after all these years still can't get it right with a camera costing a small fortune.

It is really quite insane and unacceptable.

 

I have decided to forget the M-M idea and continue shooting film with Leica and digital with Sinar. There are better things to do than buy and test endless SD cards and email a service centres, and it is high time people put their foot down on this issue and ask for their money back, or at best wait until a Maestro M comes out, if that proves more stable.

 

I believe everyone here has far too much good-will about these issues because they love the brand too much, and it makes them blind to what are really serious failures in what is supposed to be a high end piece of photography equipment.

 

Now I will wait for the defenders to come online and talk about how wonderful the M really is, and worth all the trouble...and the circle will turn round again to mumbling acceptance of a second rate product....because of the deep investments people have made.

 

The entire issue seems to me an appalling and cynical mis-use of the trust people have given a fantastic brand: Leica - who are either too proud or too stubborn to ask the advice of other experts who have long ago solved these deeply primitive and basic digital issues that could be solved in short time with the right experts in hand.

Edited April 6, 2013 by SUMOLUX

[k-hawinkler]

Sorry for this rant in advance! No disrespect intended, but I need to get this off my chest:

 

It is deeply saddening for me to read these postings.. I was really set on getting an M-M, but I see Leica has learned nothing since the release of the M8 years ago, and the excuses they make are quite simply appalling.

 

Perhaps at the risk of comparing apples and pears, in medium format I have been using a HY6 and Sinar eSprit 65 for some years now. Never had a single white band, dark band, stripe, dead pixel, line, jam up or anything out of the ordinary....Have also never heard of such issues from other users.

 

Yet Leica after all these years still can't get it right with a camera costing a small fortune.

It is really quite insane and unacceptable.

 

I have decided to forget the M-M idea and continue shooting film with Leica and digital with Sinar. There are better things to do than buy and test endless SD cards and email a service centres, and it is high time people put their foot down on this issue and ask for their money back, or at best wait until a Maestro M comes out, if that proves more stable.

 

I believe everyone here has far too much good-will about these issues because they love the brand too much, and it makes them blind to what are really serious failures in what is supposed to be a high end piece of photography equipment.

 

Now I will wait for the defenders to come online and talk about how wonderful the M really is, and worth all the trouble...and the circle will turn round again to mumbling acceptance of a second rate product....because of the deep investments people have made.

 

The entire issue seems to me an appalling and cynical mis-use of the trust people have given a fantastic brand: Leica - who are either too proud or too stubborn to ask the advice of other experts who have long ago solved these deeply primitive and basic digital issues that could be solved in short time with the right experts in hand.

 

 

Hi there,

 

Welcome to the Forum!

It seems to me there is no point in getting emotional over this.

Leica came pretty late to a successful digital camera business and they are apparently still on a pretty steep learning curve.

I wish them luck to overcome all these difficulties in future releases.

 

If their current offerings suit or don't suit you, only you can decide.

Good luck with your choices.

Edited April 6, 2013 by k-hawinkler

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[raumplan]

Today I tested with my friend's monochrom, exactly the same problem! Banding at base iso when shooting in the buffer. I feel it is a legitimate problem to all monochrom, not just a few unfortunate samples.

 

Now I really hope Leica does not stick their head in the sand but really man-up to address this...