Monochrom Banding Normal?

[raumplan]

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I have tested 4 sd card brands ( Sandisk, Lexar, Panasonic and Transcend) covering 4 class ranges ( Class 2.4,6 and 10) and all of them produced banding under the right conditions. The individual cards do however have a distinct banding signature. The Sandisk Class 2 card produced very little banding whilst the Transcend Class 10 card produced severe and un-fixable banding. The Sandisk Class 6 card and the Panasonic Gold Class 10 card produced very noticeable banding, but was easily fixable in Dfine 2 due to the consistent pattern.

 

I have tested 2 batteries covering charge ranges from 20% to 100% and it played no role in the outcome.

 

Now here is the problem. Whilst I can produce banding at will with my MM, I have seen almost no banding in about 500 real world shots. I can however visualize real world shooting conditions that can pose a problem for certain photographers. This observation makes it difficult to determine how wide-spread the problem is because you can have three categories of cameras:

 

1. Cameras tested under the right conditions that definitely produces no banding.

 

2. Cameras that shows no banding in real world conditions, but can produces banding when tested under the right conditions.

 

3. Cameras that produces banding in real world conditions.

 

Category 2 and 3 can obviously overlap due to different shooting styles and subject matter. To put a camera into category 1 requires testing under following conditions:

 

1. Use base ISO (320)

2. Use fast sd card. Any class 10 card should do.

3. Shoot various 5-7 shot sequences in continuous mode.

4. Pick a high contrast scene with a large shadow component that meet or exceeds the dynamic range of the sensor. Expose to preserve highlights. Depending on the composition of the scene this might require an under exposure of up to 2 stops.

5. The deep shadow area should preferably be an even, continuous area as opposed to an area with a lot of high frequency detail. A flat screen tv works well.

6. Adjust the exposure and shadows in Lightroom until you can clearly inspect the full tonal range including the deep shadow areas.

 

If none of the frames shows banding you definitely have a category 1 camera.

 

Very detailed, and since I know the limitations of the MM, I just try to pay more attention when I shoot in those circumstances where I know banding WILL occur!

[manolo]

I think that it is "normal" in that all monochromes can replicate it with the instructions of "wjkotze" (at least I could). In other words, I don't think that there are 3 types of cameras.

 

After about 4,000 images I have only seen it in a few shots and I still chose that shot from others that didnt have the banding. But I have to admit that that is the way I shoot most of the times: expose to preserve highlights, 320 iso and high contrast shooting. I am thinking of changing my base iso to 400 and not use iso 320.

 

I can cause banding with all my cards if I trie.

 

I am thinking that some level of software banding treatment is done in the camera to the files at iso 400 and more.

[manolo]

this is an image of the few that showed banding in the bottom while I have been working the files, not a big problem.

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[Guest borge]

Given that Leica appears to have taken the problems seriously and tested the cameras to be within specs, and that only a few users experience them, isn't it time to start looking for other causes? The most obvious suspects are SD cards and batteries.

 

I have tried to get banding on my MM by using 5 different types of SD cards:

 

SanDisk Extreme Pro 16GB 95MB/S UHS1

SanDisk Ultra 32GB 30MB/s

SanDisk Extreme III 2GB

Transcend Class 10 32GB 20MB/s

Transcend Class 10 8GB 20MB/s

 

I have also tried with the original batteries and two different 3rd party batteries as well.

 

I have tried at high and low ISO.

 

No matter what I do I don't get any banding.

 

If I raise the EV by +5.00 and shadows by +50 in LR 4.4 I do of course get some slight pattern noise in black areas. But I wouldn't expect anything else when the exposure is pushed that much!

[dwbell]

If two users can get together and prove one camera exhibits it in a test, the other not, with same SD and battery literally swapped out between them. Then I would suggest it is a camera problem, it is Leica's responsibility and that they should take action.

 

Avoiding base ISO? On a camera this expensive and this aimed at high quality image taking? Really? Not me, I'd be aggressively looking for a direct swap.

 

Any potential buyers out there should try before you buy. If it's like some canon L lenses you want the dealer to get 3 of them out on the bench and you take the one that does work as advertised.

[wjkotze]

I have tried to get banding on my MM by using 5 different types of SD cards:

 

SanDisk Extreme Pro 16GB 95MB/S UHS1

SanDisk Ultra 32GB 30MB/s

SanDisk Extreme III 2GB

Transcend Class 10 32GB 20MB/s

Transcend Class 10 8GB 20MB/s

 

I have also tried with the original batteries and two different 3rd party batteries as well.

 

I have tried at high and low ISO.

 

No matter what I do I don't get any banding.

 

If I raise the EV by +5.00 and shadows by +50 in LR 4.4 I do of course get some slight pattern noise in black areas. But I wouldn't expect anything else when the exposure is pushed that much!

 

You might have tried it, but it is important to emphasize that the most critical variable is the use of continuous mode (or rapid sequences in single shot mode). None of the cameras shows any banding under any conditions when using single shots and allowing the buffer to clear between shots.

[Guest borge]

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You might have tried it, but it is important to emphasize that the most critical variable is the use of continuous mode (or rapid sequences in single shot mode). None of the cameras shows any banding under any conditions when using single shots and allowing the buffer to clear between shots.

 

I did use continous mode and filled the buffer, waited for the buffer to write to the card, imported all the shots to lightroom 4.4, sync'ed the identical PP values on all the files and there was no difference.

 

There was no visible artifacts or banding at +2.00 EV. There was no visible artifacts or banding at +3 or +4. At +5 with +30-50 shadow detail I could see some slight and very fine grained pattern noise in the black areas of the picture (my flatscreen glossy plasma TV), of course. But that is normal to me. If the exposures are that far off it is the photographer that messed up and not the camera.

 

Then again I have never had this problem with my MM. I have done several different tests to try to provoke this in the last 8 months - with no luck - no matter what battery or cards I use.

 

The only occasion I experienced severe banding on my files from the MM was when any sort of lens correction was enabled in Adobe Lightroom / ACR. That function messes things up considerably. I never use any of lightrooms noise removal or sharpening functions either (I have made a new import profile that zeroes these values completely - as the standard import preset applies 25/1.0 sharpening and 25 color noise reduction upon import).

[Susie]

Hi Guys,

 

As someone who has been contemplating buying a Monochrom this thread has got me wondering if I should stick with film!

 

Six thousand pounds is a lot of money to spend on a camera if the images captured are either disfigured or are going to need serious work in PS or another program to be useable. I cannot see myself shooting 'street' images in very low light at high iso's. My main interest is in landscape and details etc., general pictures taken while on trips and round locally, for which I use either Pan F or FP4. Is the banding prevalent when the sensor and internal processing is pushed to an extreme limit, but prety well unknown otherwise?

 

If Leitz are aware of the problem are they looking to fix it, or is it a phenominum that has to be lived with in out of the ordinary cases? With my slow method of working do you think it would occur?

 

Thanks,

 

Susie

[wjkotze]

Hi Guys,

 

As someone who has been contemplating buying a Monochrom this thread has got me wondering if I should stick with film!

 

Six thousand pounds is a lot of money to spend on a camera if the images captured are either disfigured or are going to need serious work in PS or another program to be useable. I cannot see myself shooting 'street' images in very low light at high iso's. My main interest is in landscape and details etc., general pictures taken while on trips and round locally, for which I use either Pan F or FP4. Is the banding prevalent when the sensor and internal processing is pushed to an extreme limit, but prety well unknown otherwise?

 

If Leitz are aware of the problem are they looking to fix it, or is it a phenominum that has to be lived with in out of the ordinary cases? With my slow method of working do you think it would occur?

 

Thanks,

 

Susie

 

We do not really know as this stage what percentage of cameras shows this phenomenon, but what we do know is that even the worst affected cameras shows no banding if you do not shoot rapid sequences. So for slow and deliberate work banding is not an issue.

[macjonny1]

Hi Guys' date='

 

As someone who has been contemplating buying a Monochrom this thread has got me wondering if I should stick with film!

 

Six thousand pounds is a lot of money to spend on a camera if the images captured are either disfigured or are going to need serious work in PS or another program to be useable. I cannot see myself shooting 'street' images in very low light at high iso's. My main interest is in landscape and details etc., general pictures taken while on trips and round locally, for which I use either Pan F or FP4. Is the banding prevalent when the sensor and internal processing is pushed to an extreme limit, but prety well unknown otherwise?

 

If Leitz are aware of the problem are they looking to fix it, or is it a phenominum that has to be lived with in out of the ordinary cases? With my slow method of working do you think it would occur?

 

Thanks,

 

Susie[/quote']

 

I'm guessing you wouldn't use continuous mode anyway?

[raumplan]

Hi Guys,

 

As someone who has been contemplating buying a Monochrom this thread has got me wondering if I should stick with film!

 

Six thousand pounds is a lot of money to spend on a camera if the images captured are either disfigured or are going to need serious work in PS or another program to be useable. I cannot see myself shooting 'street' images in very low light at high iso's. My main interest is in landscape and details etc., general pictures taken while on trips and round locally, for which I use either Pan F or FP4. Is the banding prevalent when the sensor and internal processing is pushed to an extreme limit, but prety well unknown otherwise?

 

If Leitz are aware of the problem are they looking to fix it, or is it a phenominum that has to be lived with in out of the ordinary cases? With my slow method of working do you think it would occur?

 

Thanks,

 

Susie

 

 

You will not have a problem if you wait for the buffer to clear between shots, like 7 seconds.

 

Leica is aware of these problems as I have had numerous email correspondences with them, but they said they cannot replicate the problems themselves and therefore not likely to do anything about it.

[Guest borge]

You will not have a problem if you wait for the buffer to clear between shots, like 7 seconds.

 

Leica is aware of these problems as I have had numerous email correspondences with them, but they said they cannot replicate the problems themselves and therefore not likely to do anything about it.

 

And many users don't experience this problem as well.

This thread makes it look like this is a issue that all users are affected by, which is not the case.

Leica has sold many MM's and most of the owners are not posting in this thread.

[raumplan]

And many users don't experience this problem as well.

This thread makes it look like this is a issue that all users are affected by, which is not the case.

Leica has sold many MM's and most of the owners are not posting in this thread.

 

It may not be an issue for you but it is an issue for me. I have handled two MM and they both exhibit the same identical problems. I consider myself the lucky one

[jaapv]

To be fair, it has not been an issue for me either. I just had pattern noise in a shot that I pulled up rather far.

As soon as mine is back from Solms (they kept it rather long because they lost it in the computer )I'll run some tests.

[manolo]

 

The only occasion I experienced severe banding on my files from the MM was when any sort of lens correction was enabled in Adobe Lightroom / ACR. That function messes things up considerably. I never use any of lightrooms noise removal or sharpening functions either (I have made a new import profile that zeroes these values completely - as the standard import preset applies 25/1.0 sharpening and 25 color noise reduction upon import).

 

I had, on the files that I tested, the standard import presets for sharpening that you mention; but when I zeroed them, it made it a little better (less noise) but practically, the banding is unchanged.

[k-hawinkler]

It may not be an issue for you but it is an issue for me. I have handled two MM and they both exhibit the same identical problems. I consider myself the lucky one

 

 

Can't you return your camera for a refund and try a new one before you buy?

[wjkotze]

I am afraid that I'm about to receive disastrous news, but I'm out of town until Monday and can't be certain.

 

I received notification of shipment of my Monochrom back to me. Since I haven't heard a peep in weeks, I thought it was a bad sign that no one wanted to give me disappointing news in person. I gave them a call and they said that Leica US and three departments in Leica Germany haven't indicated any steps that were taken to address the banding after thorough analysis and testing. If anything was done, she cannot see it on the service form.

 

I can only assume that means they cannot fix the problem, which must be too widespread to admit as a defect. Unfortunately, I cannot accept that an an answer. I cannot agree that a camera under warranty won't be fixed by the manufacturer when it is defective to the point I can't sell it to someone else. That's an absurd position to ask of a customer.

 

I'm going to ask them when I return if they'll accept $2,000 to take the camera back and sell it as a refurb and provide me with a new camera. I know that's a preposterous offer on my part, but going to the trouble of suing them costs me more time and about the same money.

 

Any feedback on your camera ?

[Cmrn]

Any feedback on your camera ?

I'd love to hear more about this from the OP.

[batmobile]

I've not noticed any banding of this kind in mine with how I use it. However, I have not gone looking for it. I noticed some odd patterning to the night sky in a night shot at about ISO 2500 and rotated in LR, but this sounds like something else. It looked more like a weird processing artefact than capture banding talked about here.

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[wjkotze]

I've not noticed any banding of this kind in mine with how I use it. However, I have not gone looking for it. I noticed some odd patterning to the night sky in a night shot at about ISO 2500 and rotated in LR, but this sounds like something else. It looked more like a weird processing artefact than capture banding talked about here.

 

The banding discussed in this thread is entirely at base ISO (320). This particular banding is not present at higher ISO levels.