Olimatt Posted November 11, 2012 Share #1 Posted November 11, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Forumers, I am still playing around with my leica and also got some medium format cameras (hassy 500, fuji 645zi) since. I am slowly learning how to develop BW film at home (trying to develop delta 3200 and TriX in DD-X and rodinal recently). The scanning part is the hardest... I started with a single frame 35mm scanner (Plustek optifilm 7600i) a few months ago and have acquired one epson v750 scanner this week. I thought it would perform better that the Plustek... I am still struggling with the software... as an IT guy with a masters in computer science, I find all these softwares pretty poor (very bad user interface, bad auto correction modes, bad packaging and even some ridiculous website/documentation translations - which I opened in french and german today!). Could some of you try to answer to my questions ? - Is it possible with silverfast 8 SE to scan negatives and make silverfast invert the negative to get a positive ? (I have to start photoshop afterwards to to that, pretty annoying!) - I understad curve/editing stuff which I normally do in Lightroom afterwards. In Silverfast I simply adjust the paramters of the "Negafix" tab. Nevertheless, I find silverfasts output quite flat with a very shallow black/gray/white "spectrum". It seems that the scanner is not able to scan at various "light intensities" in order to get the full dynamic range of that film. Do you experience the same issues ? It still have my Plustek optifilm 7600i scanner which seems to perform better... - Does Silverfast HDR provide any good help ? What is your experience with this tool? How is the integration with silverfast 8 SE? - What about the mass scanning features of silverfast? I am spending hours scanning my negatives... which is pretty crazy! Have you developed any efficent routine to make all that tasks (scanning, cutting frames, inverting images, basic autoadjustment of the curves in lightroom) ? I would really appreciate to get some feedback from experienced film users. Any kind of tip is welcome (even regarding other software solutions). Thank you. Best Regards, Olivier Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 Hi Olimatt, Take a look here Scanning software for the best possible quality. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted November 11, 2012 Share #2 Posted November 11, 2012 There is no way that an Epson V750 will scan a 35mm negative better than the Plustek. Using either scanner do not use any dust removal software, it will degrade the scans. Yes of course you can scan a negative and make it come out positive without having to invert it in Lightroom, but it is so long since I used Silverfast that I can't remember which drop box you need to go to. A flat scan, from either your Plustek or your Epson is ideal. Look at the histogram, if you have good black and white points, without blown highlights or clipped shadows it means the scanner has gathered as much information as it is possible to do, even if they look flat. Flat is good. Then when you import to Lightroom you can arrange the tones how you want them with better software. For my Plustek scanner I use Vuescan software, it is simple to use and does a great job at getting all the tones. For my Epson V700 I use either the Epson software, or again Vuescan. If you are able to in your software make sure your preview scan is at a high dpi, this is because it is used to assess exposure for the main scan. So a low dpi setting although faster does introduce the possibility of clipped blacks and whites in the main scan. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 11, 2012 Share #3 Posted November 11, 2012 Perfect Slide & Negative Scans | SilverFast SE, Ai | Scanning | ColorPerfect Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted November 13, 2012 Share #4 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) I use a Nikon 4000 DPI Coolscan 4000 Nikon | Imaging Products | SUPER COOLSCAN 4000 ED (LS-4000 ED) with Hamrick's VueScan! It work's great! This scanner gets me +/- 21 megapixel scans. see here a scan of a 18yo color negative Fuji G 200 With VueScan I can set it to output a DNG file, that is already been inversed so I DO see the normal colors, this way I have raw capabilities but it's already in color. I've set multisample on 4, the output is 64bit RGBI TIFF in DNG format. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited November 13, 2012 by jip Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/192031-scanning-software-for-the-best-possible-quality/?do=findComment&comment=2166068'>More sharing options...
wda Posted November 13, 2012 Share #5 Posted November 13, 2012 Jip, do you use Vuescan by choice, or do you not have the Nikon software? If you have both, I would welcome your comparison or relative virtues. Thanks. PS. I have the Nikon 5000 with the Nikon software. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted November 13, 2012 Share #6 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) I have used the nikon software as well, I find Vuescan better. I'm using a Mac Pro workstation, with Mac OS X 10.8 this OS is not supported with the Nikon software, but I've tried it on a different computer. I like vuescan better once it's setup properly... it leaves files which hold more possibilities, like TIFF in .dng files. Which are already made into normal colours instead of negative. Vuescan isn't as straightforward as the nikon software but once it's setup it works great, it know allot sorts of films so it can adjust colours accordingly... It's scanning at the moment, old negatives from 18 years ago... Fuji Super G 200 I've set it to use infrared scratch and dust detection that works quite well, better and less obvious as with the nikon software... Have your scan do a HDR scan or multisexposure scan! to get more dynamic range. Edited November 13, 2012 by jip 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted November 14, 2012 Share #7 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Olivier, as regards V750 vs dedicated slide scanners I would be surprised if the Epson stands a real chance. I can't advise on Silverfast because I use Vuescan. I don't know if VS can be set up to auto-invert colour negative files but (as I describe below) I don't need that functionality because I prefer correcting colours in Photoshop in parallel with scanning. As for David's question about Nikon Scan vs Vuescan, I used NS for years with my Canon SLRs until I discovered Vuescan. NS was ok but somewhat unstable on PC and I didn't like the interface. On the Mac there was obviously the Rosetta problem and also bugginess. Vuescan's interface isn't the best either, but quality-wise I see little difference between the scans. NS does have some extra features, like the scan image enhancer which I don't believe VS has. However, I always aim for the flattest possible scan and do literally Zero editing in the scan software, so VS for me has been the best ever solution. I should add that I am not one of those fundamentalists who don't even use Digital ICE even though I know that it does "edit" a bit. The practicality and time-saving of having most dust and scratches removed outweighs any negative impact on the image quality of Digital ICE. It is important to set it up properly but once done it allows fast scans. This means creating profiles for the films one uses (which are easily loaded). The best is to start with one profile with all film-unspecific settings, like scan size, DPI, naming convention etc. Then for each film add the extras under the Color tab and save with appropriate profile names. VS will keep a few (4 or 5) in the File menu so they are easily accessed; any other profiles are just a dialog box away. I typically do one 36 colour neg roll in one hour. This includes running the negative scans through ColorPerfect in CS5, which is my preferred choice of "developing" the images. Then I do dust spotting as necessary and save the "digital original". I have set up one Photoshop action for basic LAB colour editing which outputs a JPG at scan size 300 dpi but I don't usually run that as part of my scanning (and this is not included in the 1-hour estimate). For colour negative films, VS allows locking film base colour and exposure which means the scanner won't pass twice over the frame. Saves time. A roll of BW takes less time because the scans are faster, even though the scanner lights each frame twice. There is of course no need to go into ColorPerfect for these images, however I do dust spot them in CS5 as the scan goes on and save the digital original. Speaking of no. of passes, in my tests on my scanner I have not seen any difference between a one-pass scan and a three-pass scan (except grey hair on my head). Sure it is possible to do multiexposure scans, HDR etc (or even just open multiple copies at different exposures in ACR - there's an article by Harold Davis at Photo.net worth a read), but I must admit that I have never had the need for more dynamic range in film (professionals might, though). A roll of slides usually takes longer than 1 hour because the frames are denser, plus I don't believe one can lock film base colour so there's always two passes (this is from memory, so I may be wrong). Note that ColorPerfect can also be used for colour corrections of slides but I only use that while scanning for any obvious errors. As for file type, ColorPerfect requires linear TIFF and I would - after much experimenting and assistance from knowledgeable members here - recommend not using the RAW or DNG options. The main desire when scanning is always to keep as much information as possible in the file and do as little editing in the scan software as possible. When I began using VS, I was initially tempted by the ability to open DNGs and RAWs in ACR for editing there (btw, note that one can open JPGs and also TIFFs in ACR) but I found that the colours became wrong with these formats. Linear TIFFs are the way to go, as explained on the ColorPerfect website (not only for that plugin but also, I would suggest, for the flattest, most information-intense images useful for post-processing in Photoshop). For image editing TIFFs are really excellent. They are comparably small size and lossless. I scan at the "Print" setting which I have found gives a good balance between scan time and image size, either for prints or internet use. The size is approx 1800x1200. When I began scanning ten years ago with NS I always went for the max scan size however for my usage the extra information gained in a 25MP scan is unnecessary and slows down the process (and I have a very fast Mac Pro). Plus dust spotting a 25MP image is slooooow and may be unnecessary for smaller output sizes. I would create such large scans only when I need to print A3+ which I rarely do. As for BW editing, Tim Gray who is also a member here (though I haven't seen him for a while) has posted an excellent walk-through (here) about BW scanning and editing. He created a few Photoshop actions for quick editing. These are very good but usually require a bit of personalisaton depending on taste (easily done in Photoshop). It's great that he's posted them. They do speed things up and punch up the images in a nice way. For VS there's an online manual at Hamrick's site which is OK. However, for a quick start that gives decent results which one can work with, I found the independent Vuescan Manual better. There is also the Vuescan Bible, I think it is called, a book, but from what I understand it pretty much sucks. Cheers Edited November 14, 2012 by philipus 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted November 17, 2012 Share #8 Posted November 17, 2012 Software does not control the quality of the scan, that is built into the scanner. All you really want to do is get a scan with correct WB ( if color) and non clipped histogram as stated above. This will be like a raw file from a digital camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 17, 2012 Share #9 Posted November 17, 2012 Software does not control the quality of the scan, that is built into the scanner. All you really want to do is get a scan with correct WB ( if color) etc But either nobody knows how to do it or, if they do, they have never posted it on the internet. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted November 17, 2012 Share #10 Posted November 17, 2012 Check the histogram from the prescan is how you get it all in one scan. Then change exposure as necessary. If the contrast is so high it will not fit, develop film for lower contrast, ie less time, or use a two solution developer like divided D23. Same as wet printing. Dye dodging is also an option as is chemical reduction. Both are advanced techniques. A last resort is HDR, make three scans for shadows to the left, mid tones to the center, highlight to right. My scanner will overlay the files perfectly, if not use the auto alignment function photoshop HDR or the arrow keys which move the file one pixel per push. But you are always better off to expose for shadows and develop moderately so as not to blow highlights. If you can sacrifice film speed, use 1/2 box speed and 20% less development time. You get sharp fine grain negs at print or scan very well. Color Balance, adjust blue/yellow to neutralize, then magenta green, then red cyan these are the additive primaries. Then go back and do minor adjustments to the three channels to fine tune. If this is beyond your skill, then do a close shot of a Whi Bal card and run it on auto scan. Then save the RGB settings it made as a preset and apply it to all scans made on that film used under the same light conditions. This will solve the color problem 99%. This also is same as wet printing except you might have an analyzer or video screen if you are a pro lab. The video screen was a big deal 20 years ago and cost $50,000. Now you get the same thing on your home computer. Calibrate your screen so what you are seeing is correct. The $100 job from Best Buy is ok for mail, not nearly good enough for graphics. Color film is basically daylight only. Use it for flash or sun. If you use it under tungsten, filter it 80A or 80B. Do not try to fix it in scan as it all screwed up. Remember it always easier to add contrast in PS or add Saturation then it is to get rid of it later. Strive for low contrast negs with lowish color saturation. Add as necessary later. So now you know the secrets. This is really how a darkroom works, except you have more control here. And I have written this up about 100 times. It is all somewhere in cyberspace. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted November 17, 2012 Share #11 Posted November 17, 2012 For years I had an Epson Perfection 3200 with which I achieved reasonable results. Last year I passed it onto my son and bought a V700. Firstly I tried Vuescan, as that is what I had had to use with the 3200 and Vista. Still clunky. Then I tried Silverfast SE 6.6 which came with the V700. Very unintuitive. Turning to the scanner's EpsonScan software - what a relief. Basically I just run it in default mode and the results just need a few tweaks in LR4. Black& White - example of tones (M7, C-Sonnar 50mm, Tri-X) Colour - default settings (Rolleicord Vb, Portra 400) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 17, 2012 Share #12 Posted November 17, 2012 Color Balance, adjust blue/yellow to neutralize, then magenta green, then red cyan these are the additive primaries. Then go back and do minor adjustments to the three channels to fine tune. Is this all done by eye on a calibrated screen or is there another trick? How is this done with vuescan? do a close shot of a Whi Bal card and run it on auto scan. Then save the RGB settings it made as a preset and apply it to all scans made on that film used under the same light conditions. This will solve the color problem 99%. Is this running the scan on auto? I'll give that a try, thanks. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 17, 2012 Share #13 Posted November 17, 2012 Turning to the scanner's EpsonScan software - what a relief. Basically I just run it in default mode and the results just need a few tweaks in LR4.his is what I've resigned myself to doing. Sometmes the results are good, sometimes not. Occasionally I'll scan with vuescan, Epsonscan and Siverfast, ctrl M in CS4 then under options and choose the best colour balance Algorithm +/- snap neutral midtones.It's all a bit hit or miss for me so I'll see if I can work something out with Toby's ideas. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 18, 2012 Share #14 Posted November 18, 2012 Oh, now I read it's not as simple as suggested. Vuescan gives terrible colours. . Back to my original thinking/post again. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 18, 2012 Share #15 Posted November 18, 2012 Colour negative film. Portra 160. The epson scan and Silverfast scans below were on auto. The Vuescan scan took an immense amount of time. None are sharpend. Epsonscan: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Silverfast: Vuescan: Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Silverfast: Vuescan: ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/192031-scanning-software-for-the-best-possible-quality/?do=findComment&comment=2169807'>More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted November 18, 2012 Share #16 Posted November 18, 2012 Colour negative film. Portra 160. The epson scan and Silverfast scans below were on auto. The Vuescan scan took an immense amount of time. None are sharpend. The results pretty much back up my experiences (see post #11). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 18, 2012 Share #17 Posted November 18, 2012 Epsonscan Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Silverfast Vuescan Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Silverfast Vuescan ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/192031-scanning-software-for-the-best-possible-quality/?do=findComment&comment=2169827'>More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 18, 2012 Share #18 Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) Epsonscan with further processing in Photoshop: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Like Keith, my conclusion is get as much info as possible with Epson scan on auto. Make sure no clipping. Let the scanning software invert the image. Refine in Photoprocessing software. Pete Edited November 18, 2012 by Stealth3kpl Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Like Keith, my conclusion is get as much info as possible with Epson scan on auto. Make sure no clipping. Let the scanning software invert the image. Refine in Photoprocessing software. Pete ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/192031-scanning-software-for-the-best-possible-quality/?do=findComment&comment=2169840'>More sharing options...
philipus Posted November 19, 2012 Share #19 Posted November 19, 2012 Pete, for the Vuescan scans, did you lock the film base colour and exposure? Cheers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted November 19, 2012 Share #20 Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Pete, for the Vuescan scans, did you lock the film base colour and exposure? Cheers Yes. I take a preview involving the interborder space then lock exposure, preview then lock film base, preview then lock image color. The preview frame is then expanded to full frame size to prescan the desired frame. More or less this routine but with Vuescan set to colourneg. Pete Edited November 19, 2012 by Stealth3kpl Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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