Frame lines on new M?

[stevelap]

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...........My HDTV is dark when the power is "off" - but it still burns a red LED, and responds to an infrared "on" signal from my remote..........

 

Then it isn't "Off", it's in "Standby"

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[DFV]

This just another issue with the very disappointing presentation of the M and E. I any case I have no problem with the M if there is an M10 on the way.

 

Many of us never asked for LED frame lines. I can live with the silly video and live view (which in my humble opinion is completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica" mystique), but removing options that many Leica owners used regularly is a f.... disgrace. How many times have most of us used that lever before switching the lens? Personally, I believe this is just like a little finger... You will miss it once you don't have it.

 

As to my next-M wish list things are still to be seen;

 

1.- better ISO performance: will see but looks promising

2.- Image quality: CMOS does not make me happy but this is Leica so I will wait for results

3.- LCD info on the top when the camera if off (like the M8): Thanks for nothing...

4.- Resolution: never asked for more. Better and NOT more pixels like the MM would be more welcomed

5.- Geotaging: got to pay extra and make it almost the size of a small DSLR. Nice...

6.- Battery life: honestly, I take one or sometimes two spare batteries with me. If fully loaded, only once I needed the first spare and never the second

7.- Better screen: I agree that the old screen was pitiful but a better screen will make many a worse photographer. Mark my words.

8.- More info in the focusing screen: some extra info like program, frames left, battery status and iso would have been nice instead of messing around with the frame lines.

9.- the size of the M6: I still hold the M6 once in a while. Nice, much nicer. Does anybody remember?

 

With the new M I see that it resembles or even tries to get close to DSLRs and compacts that many Leica M users try to avoid. I still hope to see an M10... And not a striped M9.

 

I was eager to pull he trigger on an M10, but this? Right now my only reason to get one would be if the new M is more forgiving with non-Leica glass. I like my 12 and most of all 15 CV but they are not that great on the M9. I can't wait to see the first proper field test with the M.

 

BTW. Focus peeking is complete BS and it will never be able to substitute the traditional way to focus. Anybody with a NEX and Leica adapters will be able to confirm this. It helps but not by much. You want to have it in focus you still need to zoom in.

[earleygallery]

Come on, tell us what you REALLY think!

 

To be fair, Leica weren't thinking just about you when they designed the new M. Personally I think it's more in the tradition of Leica than any of their other recent offerings. Pick up a Leica brochure from the 50's and look at the bewildering array of 'system' accessories you could choose!

 

This just another issue with the very disappointing presentation of the M and E. I any case I have no problem with the M if there is an M10 on the way.

 

Many of us never asked for LED frame lines. I can live with the silly video and live view (which in my humble opinion is completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica" mystique), but removing options that many Leica owners used regularly is a f.... disgrace. How many times have most of us used that lever before switching the lens? Personally, I believe this is just like a little finger... You will miss it once you don't have it.

 

As to my next-M wish list things are still to be seen;

 

1.- better ISO performance: will see but looks promising

2.- Image quality: CMOS does not make me happy but this is Leica so I will wait for results

3.- LCD info on the top when the camera if off (like the M8): Thanks for nothing...

4.- Resolution: never asked for more. Better and NOT more pixels like the MM would be more welcomed

5.- Geotaging: got to pay extra and make it almost the size of a small DSLR. Nice...

6.- Battery life: honestly, I take one or sometimes two spare batteries with me. If fully loaded, only once I needed the first spare and never the second

7.- Better screen: I agree that the old screen was pitiful but a better screen will make many a worse photographer. Mark my words.

8.- More info in the focusing screen: some extra info like program, frames left, battery status and iso would have been nice instead of messing around with the frame lines.

9.- the size of the M6: I still hold the M6 once in a while. Nice, much nicer. Does anybody remember?

 

With the new M I see that it resembles or even tries to get close to DSLRs and compacts that many Leica M users try to avoid. I still hope to see an M10... And not a striped M9.

 

I was eager to pull he trigger on an M10, but this? Right now my only reason to get one would be if the new M is more forgiving with non-Leica glass. I like my 12 and most of all 15 CV but they are not that great on the M9. I can't wait to see the first proper field test with the M.

 

BTW. Focus peeking is complete BS and it will never be able to substitute the traditional way to focus. Anybody with a NEX and Leica adapters will be able to confirm this. It helps but not by much. You want to have it in focus you still need to zoom in.

[mjh]

I any case I have no problem with the M if there is an M10 on the way.

Huh? The M is the M10, i.e. the successor of the M9 that was informally referred to as the M10.

[hoppyman]

Andy I respect that you have different preferences in how you like the camera to operate.

Personally I don't see this frame line operation as significant.

To take photos the camera must be powered ON of course and the frame line illumination will be there. Maybe this will become like the now missing frame line selector and irritate just a few because they are used to a particular handling? I'm pleased with the restoration of the 2m best point though.

I've never seen the M Titanium that first had this method either. Perhaps they are clearer. White sounds better than the red to me anyway. I never had any difficulty with visibility of the existing frame lines in any usable light and of course the new ones will represent only the same approximation of coverage. I think that will remain for as long as the current OVF does. In my view Leica Camera would be mad to remove that from their core product.

I think the new M looks extremely promising by maintaining the existing M9ness while adding the optional extras without an accompanying price shift.

[-ph-]

As nice it is to be able to see the frame lines always with the M9, if you are about to actually take a photograph, the fact that the frame lines of the M need to be switched on can be seen as a feature. Far too often, I take my M9, carefully compose and focus, and when I press the shutter - nothing! Oh, right, switch on the camera and try again .

 

Peter

[jdlaing]

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Huh? The M is the M10, i.e. the successor of the M9 that was informally referred to as the M10.

 

Informally by everybody and their brother BUT the manufacturer.

[mjh]

Informally by everybody and their brother BUT the manufacturer.

Leica had code names for the M and M-E but I suppose even in Solms the M might have been referred to as the M10 by some. I know for certain that the new S was often referred to as the S3 (although it had a code name as well).

[adan]

Then it isn't "Off", it's in "Standby"

 

Could be - but it gets into that status (whatever you want to call it) when I press the "OFF" button.

__________________

 

Anyway - a simple engineering question for mjh and the other engineering types. Did adding LED frameline illumination require - for technical reasons - the elimination of natural-light illumination? Were there other technical reasons for the change (size of the Maestro processor or new battery pack?)

[zlatkob]

I can live with the silly video and live view (which in my humble opinion is completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica" mystique), but removing options that many Leica owners used regularly is a f.... disgrace.

....

8.- More info in the focusing screen: some extra info like program, frames left, battery status and iso would have been nice instead of messing around with the frame lines.

....

With the new M I see that it resembles or even tries to get close to DSLRs and compacts that many Leica M users try to avoid. I still hope to see an M10... And not a striped M9.

 

Wait ... you're complaining about things being completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica mystique", but you want LCD info on top of the camera and more info in the viewfinder, such as program, frames left, battery status and ISO? What part of the "Leica mystique" had all of that? I actually agree with you on all of those, but you realize they are completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica mystique" as defined by photographers who seem to believe a camera should give as little information as possible.

 

Everyone defines the "Leica mystique" their own way. I think it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of live view or video, so adding those does nothing to diminish the "Leica mystique".

[DFV]

Huh? The M is the M10, i.e. the successor of the M9 that was informally referred to as the M10.

 

This was just wishfull thinking I gues. By M10 I mean something that evolves in the MM frame of mind not something that moves in the direction of a DSLR or a high-end compact. Come on, I see the specs of the M and I see a NEX-7 for five times the price! And if Sony where to dish up a NEX full frame this would make many look silly after an M.

[luigi bertolotti]

As nice it is to be able to see the frame lines always with the M9, if you are about to actually take a photograph, the fact that the frame lines of the M need to be switched on can be seen as a feature. Far too often, I take my M9, carefully compose and focus, and when I press the shutter - nothing! Oh, right, switch on the camera and try again .

 

Peter

 

Yes, me too see this little limitation as not so significant for me... anyway I take my M8 out of the case (if inside) or at my eye, I switch on... to be precise... I got accustomed to this having experienced the issue above quoted ("focus - press - noclick - damn the switch !")

I am just a bit more worried about the absence of preselection lever... I admit that I don't use it so often, but when one feels the need to do, is quick and simple... I would have preferred something similar should have been kept in the new M... but not a reason to think "not for me"...

[DFV]

Wait ... you're complaining about things being completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica mystique", but you want LCD info on top of the camera and more info in the viewfinder, such as program, frames left, battery status and ISO? What part of the "Leica mystique" had all of that? I actually agree with you on all of those, but you realize they are completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica mystique" as defined by photographers who seem to believe a camera should give as little information as possible.

 

Everyone defines the "Leica mystique" their own way. I think it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of live view or video, so adding those does nothing to diminish the "Leica mystique".

 

The screen I was referring to was the same one on the M8. Simple frames left like on back when we used film and a battery indicator. This was very convenient and did not require to activate or use the menu.

 

As to more info inside the view finder I would have preferred that (if they absolutely needed to tamper with it...) rather than new frame lines and the disposal of the selection lever.

 

In any case this is not about as little info as possible but rather instant information and being able to react to it without having the need to fumble through a menu and settings. I would have liked a bracketing selector/wheel like on older M models (or a modern Canon G10 or) a small lever selector on the the speed dial to select between one of the 4 preselected programs. Only these two things would give you instant information and immediate setting without having to go through a menu. Having to constantly go to the info or setting screen to set or find info defeats the purpose and slows the operation of taking pictures considerably. Leica M was always about speed, efficiency and most of al photography. All these menus are distracting and take you away from the final purpose. Don't get me wrong, being able to set all this things is great and the more options de better. yet that is something I want to set at home and once I am out I should be focused of taking pictures and not in having to remember or peek if my ISO is right, preselected programing is the one I want or if the lens was properly recognized... In the end I see more buttons appearing that complicate things and those that should make life easier disappear.

[giordano]

Come on, I see the specs of the M and I see a NEX-7 for five times the price! And if Sony where to dish up a NEX full frame this would make many look silly after an M.

 

Enough with the hissy fit! The specs of the M include a Leica M range/viewfinder. No NEX has one and or ever will.

[DFV]

Come on, tell us what you REALLY think!

 

To be fair, Leica weren't thinking just about you when they designed the new M. Personally I think it's more in the tradition of Leica than any of their other recent offerings. Pick up a Leica brochure from the 50's and look at the bewildering array of 'system' accessories you could choose!

 

My main complaint is that Leica have gone into the "pixel-war" like all others instead of focusing on the essential values they have so long promoted. I don't know about you, but what I want are better pixels and NOT more pixels. The MM has demonstrated that. Regrettably I need color so the MM is not for me.

 

What I really think I have already stated. Disappointment... I wanted something like an MM but in color and what I got is an expensive NEX-7. (Although things could be worse, we could be talking about the Hasseblad Luna... Wow! talk about ridiculous. A 5k camera that currently has not a single acceptable E-mount lens!)

 

As to me getting an "M" I suspect that like many others I will eagerly wait for an in-depth review of the camera. My only and final decision is If indeed the vigneting and color issues with wide-angle lenses (especially non-Leica) has been improved or even completely corrected I will be the first one to get an "M". I REALLY hope this is true. If not, than I have no reason to change my M9.

[mjh]

What I really think I have already stated. Disappointment... I wanted something like an MM but in color and what I got is an expensive NEX-7.

Don’t know what the NEX-7 has got to do with it; the ‘expensive NEX-7’ is the Hasselblad Lunar. Come on, everyone knew the M10 would offer live view, so if that is an issue for you, at least you were prepared. The M is what most people had predicted the M10 would be – except for the price.

[andybarton]

An MM in colour is, erm, an M9.

[philipus]

Please forgive my ignorance, but how is geotagging and more info in the viewfinder compatible with this purported mystique?

 

I do agree, however, that it would have been nice if Leica had managed to fit all into a body the size of an M6. Since they couldn't make the M-E smaller perhaps the technology isn't yet here to allow this.

 

Makes me happy to use a TTL every day.

 

 

This just another issue with the very disappointing presentation of the M and E. I any case I have no problem with the M if there is an M10 on the way.

 

Many of us never asked for LED frame lines. I can live with the silly video and live view (which in my humble opinion is completely and utterly contrary to the "Leica" mystique), but removing options that many Leica owners used regularly is a f.... disgrace. How many times have most of us used that lever before switching the lens? Personally, I believe this is just like a little finger... You will miss it once you don't have it.

 

As to my next-M wish list things are still to be seen;

 

1.- better ISO performance: will see but looks promising

2.- Image quality: CMOS does not make me happy but this is Leica so I will wait for results

3.- LCD info on the top when the camera if off (like the M8): Thanks for nothing...

4.- Resolution: never asked for more. Better and NOT more pixels like the MM would be more welcomed

5.- Geotaging: got to pay extra and make it almost the size of a small DSLR. Nice...

6.- Battery life: honestly, I take one or sometimes two spare batteries with me. If fully loaded, only once I needed the first spare and never the second

7.- Better screen: I agree that the old screen was pitiful but a better screen will make many a worse photographer. Mark my words.

8.- More info in the focusing screen: some extra info like program, frames left, battery status and iso would have been nice instead of messing around with the frame lines.

9.- the size of the M6: I still hold the M6 once in a while. Nice, much nicer. Does anybody remember?

 

With the new M I see that it resembles or even tries to get close to DSLRs and compacts that many Leica M users try to avoid. I still hope to see an M10... And not a striped M9.

 

I was eager to pull he trigger on an M10, but this? Right now my only reason to get one would be if the new M is more forgiving with non-Leica glass. I like my 12 and most of all 15 CV but they are not that great on the M9. I can't wait to see the first proper field test with the M.

 

BTW. Focus peeking is complete BS and it will never be able to substitute the traditional way to focus. Anybody with a NEX and Leica adapters will be able to confirm this. It helps but not by much. You want to have it in focus you still need to zoom in.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[philipus]

everyone knew the M10 would offer live view, so if that is an issue for you, at least you were prepared. The M is what most people had predicted the M10 would be – except for the price.

 

Agree re the price. A big surprise imho.

 

We don't know for sure, because the M's manual isn't yet available, but I suspect it will be possible not to use the live view if doesn't want to use it. Just a wild guess however.

[luigi bertolotti]

Agree re the price. A big surprise imho.

 

We don't know for sure, because the M's manual isn't yet available, but I suspect it will be possible not to use the live view if doesn't want to use it. Just a wild guess however.

 

I think it's like this by sure... seems even to have read something about... don't switch on Liveview----> normal Leica VF/RF (with LCD-lit frames).

I can understand that someone doesn't care or doesn't like Liveview... but I imagine that should have they implemented a CMOS sensor WITHOUT Liveview... we would see dozens of posts complaining about such a silly choice; and, after all, Liveview (and EVF) is the factor that allowed them to offer the "R solution" without too much costs and tech gymnicks (a tube with a 6 bit code, and some KB of firmware)